BC Teachers Getting Screwed...Again

[socialist]

You absolutely DO read about it in the local papers, regularly. The education is bottom of the barrel, and getting worse year by year.

I don't believe you. Give me some current links.

[Bryan]

I don't believe you. Give me some current links.

This story was in all the papers last month:

http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/manitoba-students-near-bottom-of-class-among-provinces-for-math-reading-and-science-study-1.1571693

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/manitobas-bottom-of-the-class-234369251.html

http://beaconnews.ca/blog/2014/07/manitoba-reading-math-science-scores-toilet/

In a study recently released by the C. D. Howe Institute, John Richards analyzed data from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA). Every three years, PISA tests more than 500,000 fifteen-year-old students from approximately 65 countries in the core competencies of math, reading, and science. Students from all provinces participated in the latest PISA tests.

Richards noted that from 2000 to the present, Manitoba was one of only two provinces (the other being Prince Edward Island) to experience a statistically significant decline in all three competency areas. To make matters worse, only Manitoba’s math and reading results declined by 35 points.

Manitoba has the most students in Canada in the lowest level of achievement, and the fewest students in the highest level of achievement.

We are leading the country in one thing though:

when it comes to per-student expenditures, Manitoba ranks near the top in Canada. According to Statistics Canada, Manitoba’s per-student spending comes in a close second to that of Alberta. In the 2010-2011 school year, Manitoba spent an average of $13,150 per student, which was more than $500 higher than the national average. Clearly, more spending does not necessarily lead to better academic results.

Spending more, getting less.

The actual report can be found here:

http://www.cdhowe.org/warning-signs-for-canadian-educators-the-bad-news-in-canadas-pisa-results-2/26459

[Hal 9000]

This story was in all the papers last month:

http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/manitoba-students-near-bottom-of-class-among-provinces-for-math-reading-and-science-study-1.1571693

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/manitobas-bottom-of-the-class-234369251.html

http://beaconnews.ca/blog/2014/07/manitoba-reading-math-science-scores-toilet/

We are leading the country in one thing though:

Spending more, getting less.

The actual report can be found here:

http://www.cdhowe.org/warning-signs-for-canadian-educators-the-bad-news-in-canadas-pisa-results-2/26459

So, if what you say is true, simply throwing more money at schooling doesn't necessarily mean better education...Hmmm.

[socialist]

This story was in all the papers last month:

http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/manitoba-students-near-bottom-of-class-among-provinces-for-math-reading-and-science-study-1.1571693

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/manitobas-bottom-of-the-class-234369251.html

http://beaconnews.ca/blog/2014/07/manitoba-reading-math-science-scores-toilet/

We are leading the country in one thing though:

Spending more, getting less.

The actual report can be found here:

http://www.cdhowe.org/warning-signs-for-canadian-educators-the-bad-news-in-canadas-pisa-results-2/26459

You provided nothing current. All links older than 1 year. Epic fail on your part.

[Bryan]

As usual, reading comprehension is not your forte.

The CD Howe report referenced is from June 2014. OECD had another one with similar results last year, as did the Conference Board of Canada, as well as StatsCan.

Here are more links for you to ignore:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/264742041.html

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/manitoba-trails--in-learning-data-213273841.html

Here's the Conference Board of Canada Report:

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/press/newsrelease/14-06-26/manitoba_earns_a_“d”_on_“how_canada_performs_education_and_skills”_report_card.aspx

Edited August 31, 2014 by Bryan

[Pct2017]

Manitoba is top notch and from what I hear they putting money to good use by building 21st century classrooms in schools. You don 't know how lucky you have it. Come to BC and see what happens when education is underfunded.

Hey Young Socialist, when did you move to BC in your make believe world? Wow, now you are a make believe teacher who has a make believe residence in the fine province of BC. How far can the make believe wife and kids be? Maybe a make believe Lamborghini sitting beside the make believe mini-van would be a nice touch. Just a point of curiosity, have you chosen a region of the province to put your make believe life in?

[socialist]

Hey Young Socialist, when did you move to BC in your make believe world? Wow, now you are a make believe teacher who has a make believe residence in the fine province of BC. How far can the make believe wife and kids be? Maybe a make believe Lamborghini sitting beside the make believe mini-van would be a nice touch. Just a point of curiosity, have you chosen a region of the province to put your make believe life in?

i've been in BC this summer to understand the gravity of the situation. I walked some picket lines to show solidarity with my brothers and sisters. A teacher is a teacher and it doesn't matter where we are from. We support each other.

You must be losing sleep as your precious liberal government continues to lose public support. The BCTF offered to take 150 million off the table. That wasn't good enough for the govt.

[Big Guy]

Governments change. The animosity created by a strike and disruption of a school system lasts much longer.

Many years ago, I was walking a picket line as a teacher when two parents were walking across the street. One SHOUTED to the other, "What do you call a teacher with a picket sign". He was answered by the other parent with, "Shit on a stick!"

Our parent - teacher committee was dissolved during the strike and not recreated for 5 years.

Later that year after the strike was resolved, I had to deal with that parent on a discipline matter with his son.

NO ONE wins during a strike action.

[Hal 9000]

Governments change. The animosity created by a strike and disruption of a school system lasts much longer.

Many years ago, I was walking a picket line as a teacher when two parents were walking across the street. One SHOUTED to the other, "What do you call a teacher with a picket sign". He was answered by the other parent with, "Shit on a stick!"

Our parent - teacher committee was dissolved during the strike and not recreated for 5 years.

Later that year after the strike was resolved, I had to deal with that parent on a discipline matter with his son.

NO ONE wins during a strike action.

Especially his son right?

[Wilber]

The son will get his school time, he will just get shorter summer vacation next year. The teachers won't get their pay checks back and the parents should have thought before they started throwing personal insults around.

[sharkman]

In all fairness, I know many teachers with cabins bu the lake. They deserve them too.

I know, they endure 5 years of education and growing debt to fight for a part time job or substitute teacher position and work their way up if they're lucky. It's not an easy occupation by any stretch, problematic kids, parents that think their kids are fantastic brainiacs when they are not, ESL issues and the like. Long days, longer nights, my wife still pulls all nighters marking for over 200 students. She can work 55 hrs per week and more. It takes her a month off just to get normal in the summer.

Where I live, maybe on the historically cheap prairies you could afford a cabin? My wife is a teacher and she can only think of one colleague with a cabin of some sort. Most can't afford such luxuries, and every summer when they aren't collecting a pay cheque, go into debt like the rest of us would.

The latest TV morning news showed the teacher union leader saying they put an offer on the table reducing their position by 125 million, during the weekend bargaining session. Peter Cameron wouldn't negotiate or otherwise touch it. Vince Ready finally called it quits after watching 4 hours of this on Saturday. Then Cameron goes in front of the camera and claims, "They still want in the order of 125 million dollars more in wages and benefits". He simply is not bargaining at all, his end game is some other goal than a negotiated settlement.

When one side does not want a settlement, it's because they want something else. Cameron wants to legislate the teachers back to work, or he wants a settlement that has the union putting aside their court wins against the government. It's going to be an ugly September.

[Big Guy]

The son will get his school time, he will just get shorter summer vacation next year. The teachers won't get their pay checks back and the parents should have thought before they started throwing personal insults around.

There has to be a special relationship of trust between parent and teacher if the education and maturing of the youngster is to be nurtured by both sides. Strikes break that trust and have ramifications on that relationship for years - if not forever. If the parents disagree with the teacher union position then they will be discussing their displeasure in the home. Often, that undermines the sense of respect that a student has for his/her teachers in future learning environments.

NOBODY wins in a strike.

[Wilber]

There has to be a special relationship of trust between parent and teacher if the education and maturing of the youngster is to be nurtured by both sides. Strikes break that trust and have ramifications on that relationship for years - if not forever. If the parents disagree with the teacher union position then they will be discussing their displeasure in the home. Often, that undermines the sense of respect that a student has for his/her teachers in future learning environments.

NOBODY wins in a strike.

I agree. Hard to be objective with someone who has made it clear he thinks you are a POS. Could be the reason his son has a discipline problem is he has an idiot for a father.

[sharkman]

Not so sure about that. Your points are valid, but consider the government's position. They can certainly rough up the union, get some more concessions, and come out as winners. The media pretty much just runs the sound bites and doesn't dig deeper.

[Smallc]

It's funny to watch conservatives fight for unions when it benefits them.

[sharkman]

It's funny to watch conservatives fight for unions when it benefits them.

Are you talking about me? I'm conservative and have a teacher for a wife, so I guess it benefits me. There are also liberals who are anti-union, so it works both ways. I used to be totally against unions, and my wife is certainly no union booster. She is also very unpolitical and gets uncomfortable with all of the back and forth of an election season. She just wants to teach, but she also doesn't want ever growing classes and wages losses through inflation. Who would?

But I've seen a government get abusive and boorish when negotiating with unions in BC while at the same time giving themselves huge raises, perks and the like. Our premier, Christy Clark, enlarged her office with Gov. money so she could have her child with her at work when she was the Minister of Education. And she always claimed there was no money during negotiations. So they say one thing, yet do another.

I used to pretty much hate unions. I had to join one 5 years ago and yeah, there are abuses in the union, but I've also gotten badly taken advantage of by nonunion employers. I was seriously underpaid by one employer, and faithfully upgraded myself to ask for a raise. No, sorry was always the response. I finally quit and saw them scramble for several months trying to train the new guy. They actually took me back and let him go(my new employer had just folded!), but it was the same garbage, so I left again. Another company underpaid me by about 700/month. I asked for a raise twice, but was turned down, afterwards I learned they took a contract out of their usual comfort zone so one employee would have a short commute, but lost big money on it. So I got squat. But I was worth a lot more, so I left them and got it. A year or so later I found myself in a union, and I don't have to deal with abusive employers that take advantage of you anymore. It's too bad that abuses happen in the nonunion sector, probably why the union still exists.

Edited August 31, 2014 by sharkman

[Pct2017]

The latest TV morning news showed the teacher union leader saying they put an offer on the table reducing their position by 125 million, during the weekend bargaining session. Peter Cameron wouldn't negotiate or otherwise touch it. Vince Ready finally called it quits after watching 4 hours of this on Saturday. Then Cameron goes in front of the camera and claims, "They still want in the order of 125 million dollars more in wages and benefits". He simply is not bargaining at all, his end game is some other goal than a negotiated settlement.

When one side does not want a settlement, it's because they want something else. Cameron wants to legislate the teachers back to work, or he wants a settlement that has the union putting aside their court wins against the government. It's going to be an ugly September.

$125 million sounds like a pile of money and it is. But, you really have to put it into prospective. Just the ludicrous $5,000 signing bonus per teacher that the teachers were demanding totaled around $200 million, so they have not even eliminated the signing bonus. What is on the table from the government as far as compensation really is as good as it is going to get. There is not a chance in hell that the teachers are going to get a penny more than the other PSU's. Even the blindest ideologue should be able to see this. The class composition and teacher workload parts of the contract are far more difficult to solve, and really should be set aside until the SCoC makes their decision.

[Pct2017]

Not so sure about that. Your points are valid, but consider the government's position. They can certainly rough up the union, get some more concessions, and come out as winners. The media pretty much just runs the sound bites and doesn't dig deeper.

I am curious, what "concessions" is the government asking for in your opinion. Do not forget that a concession is taking something out of the previous contract. The greedy teachers taking away part of the ridiculous $5000 signing bonus does not constitute a concession as they never had it and were never going to get it.

[Pct2017]

i've been in BC this summer to understand the gravity of the situation. I walked some picket lines to show solidarity with my brothers and sisters. A teacher is a teacher and it doesn't matter where we are from. We support each other.

Well there you go. That is totally believable.

[sharkman]

$125 million sounds like a pile of money and it is. But, you really have to put it into prospective. Just the ludicrous $5,000 signing bonus per teacher that the teachers were demanding totaled around $200 million, so they have not even eliminated the signing bonus. What is on the table from the government as far as compensation really is as good as it is going to get. There is not a chance in hell that the teachers are going to get a penny more than the other PSU's. Even the blindest ideologue should be able to see this. The class composition and teacher workload parts of the contract are far more difficult to solve, and really should be set aside until the SCoC makes their decision.

The $125 million was a starting position, an invitation for the government to come up a little. They wanted to see if the government would respond, they did not. In fact, they did so little that Vince Ready abandoned them. I really do suspect that the government wants nothing else but to legislate the teachers back to work. All of this fake negotiating is for the cameras, to give the impression they're trying when they're not.

After all, they've lost 2 court decisions in a row, and a third is hanging over their head so they know after this contract they'll have to get serious about funding education again. That's why they wanted a 10 year deal, so any court decision would be ancient history by the time it expired. It was a stupid move though, no one signs for 10 years. The BC government has been busy spending billions on highway improvements in the last 5 years. They plan to replace another aging bridge in BC, so other costs have to suffer in their minds. Employees are getting fed up with this approach though.

[sharkman]

I am curious, what "concessions" is the government asking for in your opinion. Do not forget that a concession is taking something out of the previous contract. The greedy teachers taking away part of the ridiculous $5000 signing bonus does not constitute a concession as they never had it and were never going to get it.

No, that is not the only definition of concession. I was simply using it in a generic way, meaning getting the union to give up some of what they are holding out for, or even most of it.

[overthere]

I know, they endure 5 years of education and growing debt to fight for a part time job or substitute teacher position and work their way up if they're lucky. It's not an easy occupation by any stretch, problematic kids, parents that think their kids are fantastic brainiacs when they are not, ESL issues and the like. Long days, longer nights, my wife still pulls all nighters marking for over 200 students. She can work 55 hrs per week and more. It takes her a month off just to get normal in the summer.

Where I live, maybe on the historically cheap prairies you could afford a cabin? My wife is a teacher and she can only think of one colleague with a cabin of some sort. Most can't afford such luxuries, and every summer when they aren't collecting a pay cheque, go into debt like the rest of us would.

The latest TV morning news showed the teacher union leader saying they put an offer on the table reducing their position by 125 million, during the weekend bargaining session. Peter Cameron wouldn't negotiate or otherwise touch it. Vince Ready finally called it quits after watching 4 hours of this on Saturday. Then Cameron goes in front of the camera and claims, "They still want in the order of 125 million dollars more in wages and benefits". He simply is not bargaining at all, his end game is some other goal than a negotiated settlement.

When one side does not want a settlement, it's because they want something else. Cameron wants to legislate the teachers back to work, or he wants a settlement that has the union putting aside their court wins against the government. It's going to be an ugly September.

My wife is also a teacher on the prairies and she also works very hard, hard enough to win several awards for excellence from her school board and parents wrangling to get her as a teacher for their lil darlings. But she also recognizes that her work is clean , dry, warm, meaningful, rewarding and well paid with enviable benefits.

You don't 'endure' anything at university, teacher certification requires a 4 year BEd degree, which requires the same effort as any arts degree. If you take 5 years you must be getting a Masters, which means you are paid more. Oh, and if a person is certain they'll onl;y get part time work, why would they invest all that time and money to enter the profession to begin with? Duh. More likely they find that jobs in the cities are harder to get than jobs in remote locations, a fact which has existed for decades.

Go into debt not collecting a cheque in the summer?? Now you're just making shit up. Teachers on contract are paid for all 12 months, not 10. If your family is unable to afford a middle class lifestyle on generous middle class pay, perhaps you should get some financial management counselling. If your spouse teaches high school, there will be somebody teaching life management skills on staff.

Cameron wants to restrict public sector staff costs to reasonable levels. I understand that chokes the unions, it is something from the real world they have rarely encountered before.

[Pct2017]

They wanted to see if the government would respond, they did not. In fact, they did so little that Vince Ready abandoned them.

You must have some powerful inside information there partner. Could you provide some evidence that suggests that Mr Ready put the blame entirely at the feet of the government? I have read nothing that even comes close to suggesting this.

[Pct2017]

The $125 million was a starting position, an invitation for the government to come up a little. They wanted to see if the government would respond, they did not.

So, let's say that you and Mrs Sharkman decided to buy a home in Abbotsford. You check out a neighborhood that is in your price range. All of the similar homes are selling for $400,000, but the home that your sales agent took you to is priced at $1,200,000 even though it is identical to the other homes priced at $400,000. The sellers logic is that is what he could get if his house was located in Kitsalano, so that is what he is demanding. You offer $400,000 to which they counter at $1,000,000. By your logic as well as that of the whiny teachers, you should be happy to get that home at $700,000. There, does that explain what is must be like negotiating with the BCTF?

Edited August 31, 2014 by Pct2017

[Wilber]

I am curious, what "concessions" is the government asking for in your opinion. Do not forget that a concession is taking something out of the previous contract. The greedy teachers taking away part of the ridiculous $5000 signing bonus does not constitute a concession as they never had it and were never going to get it.

T

$125 million sounds like a pile of money and it is. But, you really have to put it into prospective. Just the ludicrous $5,000 signing bonus per teacher that the teachers were demanding totaled around $200 million, so they have not even eliminated the signing bonus. What is on the table from the government as far as compensation really is as good as it is going to get. There is not a chance in hell that the teachers are going to get a penny more than the other PSU's. Even the blindest ideologue should be able to see this. The class composition and teacher workload parts of the contract are far more difficult to solve, and really should be set aside until the SCoC makes their decision.

It does but both sides are throwing numbers around with no specifics so they really don't mean much.