BC Teachers Getting Screwed...Again

[socialist]

There is a battle brewing in BC thanks to that provinces neo-liberal government. BC teachers are fighting for smaller class sizes while the neo-liberal government continues to attempt to slash education funding. it looks like the government is trying to force the teachers to strike. Unfortunately the teachers may have to strike. The teachers care about the kids, not the government. I am glad to hear that a majority of the public in BC is siding with the teachers and union on this serious matter.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-vote-overwhelmingly-yes-in-strike-vote-1.2563413

[Shady]

There's nothing wrong with the current size of classes.

[Spiderfish]

What do the teachers want? They have not yet put an offer on the table as to what they are looking for. Seems a bit premature to strike when they haven't tabled a counter offer, even after the province has requested it.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Spiderfish

[TimG]

The teachers care about the kids

Complete and total BS. If the teachers priorities were really about the kids the would accept pay cuts in order to reduce class room size and increase the number of support staff. Instead they demand large wage hikes that force the government to reduce staffing levels in the system.

That said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with asking for more pay. The only issue is the dishonesty where the teachers pretend it is about the kids when it is really about putting more money in their pockets.

Edited March 8, 2014 by TimG

[Wilber]

I don't think class size itself is so much of a problem, it's the number of special needs students that are in many of these classes. It don't think we should go back to the days of separate classes for these kids but many teachers are just stretched too thin trying to look after both at the same time.

This government has behaved very badly in the past, cancelling contracts etc and the courts have said so, but it is difficult for them to negotiate with a moving target that doesn't seem to want to present a position to negotiate from.

[socialist]

Complete and total BS. If the teachers priorities were really about the kids the would accept pay cuts in order to reduce class room size and increase the number of support staff. Instead they demand large wage hikes that force the government to reduce staffing levels in the system.

That said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with asking for more pay. The only issue is the dishonesty where the teachers pretend it is about the kids when it is really about putting more money in their pockets.

Maybe you need to understand how the BC neo-liberals bargained in bad faith.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/judge-grants-bcs-request-to-stay-decision-on-teachers-bargaining-pending-appeal/article17113956/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-teachers-federation-wins-2m-in-damages-from-province-1.2513211

The public is close to 90% supportive of the teachers in BC. But the teacher bashers will continue to bash ignorantly. When was the last time you were in a classroom, Tim?

[socialist]

There's nothing wrong with the current size of classes.

Can't believe you said that. Classes are too big with too many special needs students thrown in regular classrooms. Please think before posting.

[Wilber]

The public is close to 90% supportive of the teachers in BC. But the teacher bashers will continue to bash ignorantly. When was the last time you were in a classroom, Tim?

I would say a majority are supportive of the teachers but that support isn't open ended. The teachers can screw this up.

[socialist]

I would say a majority are supportive of the teachers but that support isn't open ended. The teachers can screw this up.

How can teachers screw this up when they are the ones being oppressed?

[TimG]

I would say a majority are supportive of the teachers but that support isn't open ended. The teachers can screw this up.

The teachers are already screwing this up. Wasting taxpayer money trying to get the original contract terms re-instated by the court no matter what the cost and chaos shows the people behind the teachers union are ideologues with no respect for the needs of taxpayers and a kids. They should have taken their original court victory into negotiations and left the status quo as is.

Their funny business of holding a strike vote without tabling any wage demands suggests that their expectations have no connection to reality and they are trying to hide them from the public.

Edited March 8, 2014 by TimG

[socialist]

The teachers are already screwing this up. Wasting taxpayer money trying to get the original contract terms re-instated by the court no matter what the cost and chaos shows the people behind the teachers union are ideologues with no respect for the needs of taxpayers and a kids. They should have taken their original court victory into negotiations and left the status quo as is.

Their funny business of holding a strike vote without tabling any wage demands suggests that their expectations have no connection to reality and they are trying to hide them from the public.

How are they trying to hide. The union has shown strong leadership. Courts ruled in favor of the union and teachers. What does that say about how the government is stripping bargaining rights from teachers.

[Wilber]

How can teachers screw this up when they are the ones being oppressed?

Like you screw up anything. Do something stupid. I thought you were a teacher.

[socialist]

Like you screw up anything. Do something stupid. I thought you were a teacher.

I am. But teachers in BC are being oppressed. The teachers and the union is fighting on behalf of kids and the public against powerful neo-liberals.

[Wilber]

I am. But teachers in BC are being oppressed. The teachers and the union is fighting on behalf of kids and the public against powerful neo-liberals.

They are also the elected government. The teachers were not elected and will have to keep earning their support. Doing something stupid will not do that.

[socialist]

This article says it all. There is a well-orchestrated attack on public education by neo-liberals. There are those who want to destroy public education. We all have a stake in this and we need to rally behind BC teachers and the BCTF to show our displeasure at the corporations and neo-liberals who are against democracy.

http://www.vancourier.com/news/court-sides-with-b-c-teachers-federation-on-bargaining-1.803825

[Bryan]

How can teachers screw this up when they are the ones being oppressed?

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Wilber]

My thought as well. The teachers have a lot of support right now but such over the top rhetoric doesn't help their cause. They have some legitimate issues but people see this as a negotiation that they want too be resolved, not a crusade against an evil empire.

[cybercoma]

There's nothing wrong with the current size of classes.

Do you know how difficult it is to teach a class with a large number of students with vastly different skills and needs? You either spend too much time with the kids at the bottom, not allowing the brightest kids to realize their fullest potential, or you spend more time with the brightest kids, leaving the kids at the bottom to suffer further and not improve as much as they can. It's a nearly impossible task to deliver the best education possible when class sizes are too large. If there's 35-40 students in a class, someone's kids are suffering for it. But you wouldn't care about that, as long as you're saving a few bucks on your taxes at the end of the year, right?

[TimG]

But you wouldn't care about that, as long as you're saving a few bucks on your taxes at the end of the year, right?

Well given the recent referendum on the HST it is pretty clear that people in BC have little interest in raising taxes so the teachers will have to figure out how to make the budget work. One way to reduce their workload would be to accept lower pay/benefits in order to allow more teachers to be hired.

However, the union has not put that option on the table so it is clear that larger class sizes are preferable to lower pay as far as the union is concerned. It is not clear why the public should care so much about class sizes when the union has made it clear it is not their priority.

Edited March 10, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Who said anything about reducing their workload? Less students doesn't reduce their workload. It allows them time to tailor their teaching to individual students' needs. Otherwise, they're spending their time teaching to the lowest common denominator, which doesn't help any of the kids.

Also, Tim, you lack imagination when it comes to revenues and funding, if you can't see that there's more options than simply raise the HST or teachers take a pay cut. This is a false dilemma that so overly simplistic that I'm not even going to dignify it by taking it seriously.

[TimG]

Also, Tim, you lack imagination when it comes to revenues and funding, if you can't see that there's more options than simply raise the HST or teachers take a pay cut. This is a false dilemma that so overly simplistic that I'm not even going to dignify it by taking it seriously.

Well, it is a truism that most people are all for tax increases as long as someone else has to pay them which is really what you mean when you say "imagination" is needed. What the HST referendum does say is people are not willing to pay more taxes themselves which means there is absolutely no moral argument for raising taxes on others even if there is popular support.

Now the one option which I omitted was taking revenue away from other programs which is easy to say in abstract but usually causes problems once specific programs are axed.

As for teachers accepting pay cuts: the fact that pay cuts are not on the table proves beyond all reasonable doubt that class sizes are not the first priority for teachers and the public should take a cue from the priorities that the teachers have set for themselves. Nothing you said refutes that point.

Edited March 10, 2014 by TimG

[Wilber]

As for teachers accepting pay cuts: the fact that pay cuts are not on the table proves beyond all reasonable doubt that class sizes are not the first priority for teachers and the public should take a cue from the priorities that the teachers have set for themselves. Nothing you said refutes that point.

Wouldn't them taking a pay cut be the same as increasing taxes on them. Talking about increasing taxes on someone else in order to pay for something, here's the pot calling the kettle.

[TimG]

Wouldn't them taking a pay cut be the same as increasing taxes on them. Talking about increasing taxes on someone else in order to pay for something, here's the pot calling the kettle.

It is called "putting your money where your mouth is". Teachers may think that class size is important to their working conditions but it is not so important that they will consider pay cuts. I am simply making note of the relatively low priority that the teachers place on this issue.

For your assertion to make sense the demand to reduce classes would have to come from someone other than teachers.

Aside: the only justification for including class size limits in union contracts is because it impacts teacher working conditions. If their argument is about the "quality of education" then it has no place in union contracts. That is a political debate between the public and their elected officials.

Edited March 10, 2014 by TimG

[Wilber]

It is called "putting your money where your mouth is". Teachers may think that class size is important to their working conditions but it is not so important that they will consider pay cuts. I am simply making note of the relatively low priority that the teachers place on this issue.

For your assertion to make sense the demand to reduce classes would have to come from someone other than teachers.

Aside: the only justification for including class size limits in union contracts is because it impacts teacher working conditions. If their argument is about the "quality of education" then it has no place in union contracts. That is a political debate between the public and their elected officials.

Then let's all put our money where are mouths are, work for nothing and accept any working conditions we are given.

[TimG]

Then let's all put our money where are mouths are, work for nothing and accept any working conditions we are given.

There is nothing wrong with teachers saying they want more pay (and there is nothing wrong with taxpayers saying no). I am only mocking their claims that they are pushing for class size limits because they "care about the children". At the end of the day the only things that matter to teachers union are things that benefit its members (which is fine) and they have no business pretending that they are motivated by altruism. Edited March 10, 2014 by TimG