BC Teachers Getting Screwed...Again

[Hal 9000]

Scroll down and look at the right side. Look at the poll. That is why the government is acting. They have lost all support. You and PCT have egg on your face.

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/vancouver-news-headlines

Jeez, I woulda thought that a teacher like yourself is privy to the meetings last night....hmmm

[Wilber]

Well that is the rub. What is "appropriate"? Given the fact that there is a surplus of people who want to be teachers there is no market rational for offering any raises at all. The only reason raises are even being discussed is because the BCTF has a monopoly. Pushing back against the greedy demands of a union monopoly is what the government needs to do.

That is the rub. Do you pay teachers minimum wage because there are a surplus of them looking for work? Where will that lead? Like a lot of careers, compensation is a large part of what makes them desirable. Take that away and your surplus will disappear. You can pay the price for quality or buy a cheap piece of crap. Your choice. God knows I'm not a big fan of the BCTF but what they do to make teaching a desirable occupation, goes a long way toward quality people wanting to take up the profession. As Rafe Mair used to say, some people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

Except you are wrong. The population threw a fit over the HST because they perceived it to be a tax increase which shows that the government CANNOT easily increase revenues. If the teachers get a raise it comes at the expense of something else. What are you willing to sacrifice?

People had a fit because of the governments blatant dishonesty. Two weeks after winning the election, they dropped the biggest tax change since the introduction of sales tax on the province, after saying they wouldn't during the campaign. They blew it completely. Instead of taking the time to sell the HST to people, Campbell took his typical attitude of, " I won the election, I can do anything I want". The same tactic he took with the HEU and BCTF contracts and has come back to be such a large part of the present confrontation. People and especially governments have to honour contracts even bad ones when they are signed by a previous government. Who would want to enter into a contract with a government if it could be made null and void by an election? You honour the contract then negotiate a new one when it expires.

BTW: I signed the HST petition because I believe governments should be called out when they act the way that one did, but I voted to keep the HST. Others weren't so forgiving.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Wilber

[TimG]

That is the rub. Do you pay teachers minimum wage because there are a surplus of them looking for work? Where will that lead?

Obviously if compensation was reduced fewer people would want to be teachers. However, the data also suggests there are no market justifications for raises either.

As for you get what you pay for: I am all for performance based pay that rewards good teachers but the BCTF rejects any such efforts. If the BCTF asked for increases linked to performance I would be much more sympathetic.

People had a fit because of the governments blatant dishonesty.

That is certainly your perception. I feel the reaction was because the cost of services went up 7% and people don't want taxes that they have to pay go up. Some people are fine with raising other people's taxes but that does not mean it is any easier for governments to raise taxes today. Edited August 28, 2014 by TimG

[socialist]

A little off topic, but here is a look at a Social Justice course offered in BC. It's wonderful.

https://www.bctf.ca/SocialJustice.aspx?id=17508

[guyser]

They care about their students and fighting against the attack on public education.

Kids are dying, gas prices are going up, The CFL East is in shambles.....and someone worries about a bunch of whiny overpaid teachers?...no wait, let me correct that...There are major problems and some people get all bent out of shape over a T Shirt .Teachers?

[socialist]

Kids are dying, gas prices are going up, The CFL East is in shambles.....and someone worries about a bunch of whiny overpaid teachers?...no wait, let me correct that...There are major problems and some people get all bent out of shape over a T Shirt .Teachers?

Overpaid? teachers in BC are the lowest paid in Canada. But you are simply a teacher bashing troll void of facts.

[guyser]

Overpaid? teachers in BC are the lowest paid in Canada. But you are simply a teacher bashing troll void of facts.

Didnt figure you would get it. Hell , a teacher probably would have, but not you !

TA huh? Keep studying

[Wilber]

Obviously if compensation was reduced fewer people would want to be teachers. However, the data also suggests there are no market justifications for raises either.

As for you get what you pay for: I am all for performance based pay that rewards good teachers but the BCTF rejects any such efforts. If the BCTF asked for increases linked to performance I would be much more sympathetic.

It's not a market, its an education system. The object is to produce well educated children, not to make money.

Performance based is such a lovely buzz phrase but how do you measure it? Teaching conditions can vary widely from school to school and class to class. Students in affluent areas are going to do better on average than those in in poor areas where often kids don't even eat properly and are often under the stress of major family problems. The number of special needs kids in a class will have a bearing on how much time a teacher can devote to teaching a curriculum, just to name a few variables. So what's your formula?

[TimG]

It's not a market, its an education system. The object is to produce well educated children, not to make money.

Then why don't we pay teachers 1 million per year? The fact is the market is the only fair measure of what a job is worth. Governments that want good people can offer above market wages and benefits but if the wages and benefits are already above market then there no real call for further wage increases.

Performance based is such a lovely buzz phrase but how do you measure it?

No private company can survive without developing ways to measure performance (i.e. do you think private schools refuse to measure performance?). It is a stupid excuse. It may be complicated to do right but without performance based compensation we have students being hurt by bad teachers. Why do you think this is acceptable?

[Wilber]

Then why don't we pay teachers 1 million per year? The fact is the market is the only fair measure of what a job is worth. Governments that want good people can offer above market wages and benefits but if the wages and benefits are already above market then there no real call for further wage increases. No private company can survive without developing ways to measure performance (i.e. do you think private schools refuse to measure performance?). It is a stupid excuse. It may be complicated to do right but without performance based compensation we have students being hurt by bad teachers. Why do you think this is acceptable?

Private schools can pick and chose their students, most of whom come from relatively affluent families or on scholaships. Private companies serve a specific chosen market. Public school systems must serve everyone regardless of means or ability.

[TimG]

Public school systems must serve everyone regardless of means or ability.

Excuses.

You still have not answered the question: why do you think it is acceptable to let children suffer at the hands of incompetent teachers? Without a mechanism to evaluate performance this must be happening.

[Bonam]

School performance can at the very least be measured in time relative to itself... is it doing better from year to year and managing to improve? Staying the same? Getting worse?

As for affluence... if there is such a strong correlation between affluence and academic performance, then this relationship should be able to be quantified. Once quantified, results can be normalized relative to it. Or, if a bit of multiplication and division to do the above is too complicated for the professionals employed in our education system, then perhaps schools can be compared only to other schools in areas of similar affluence levels.

The worst thing is to just make excuses and not even try.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Bonam

[Wilber]

My daughter in law teaches kindergarden, grade one at an inner city school. Abbotsford is a prison town and many of her kids come from families with one person in jail and or with some kind of addiction. Some of these kids don get enough to eat and are pretty screwed up through no fault of their own. She once had a five year old girl throw a chair at her.. She has had the opportunity to go to other schools but gets attached to her kids despite their problems and feels she is doing some good. How many people would want to teach there if their pay was based on their students academic performance?

[Wilber]

Excuses.You still have not answered the question: why do you think it is acceptable to let children suffer at the hands of incompetent teachers? Without a mechanism to evaluate performance this must be happening.

I don't think it is acceptable but I do think some people exaggerate that issue as an excuse to penalize all teachers.

[Hal 9000]

My daughter in law teaches kindergarden, grade one at an inner city school. Abbotsford is a prison town and many of her kids come from families with one person in jail and or with some kind of addiction. Some of these kids don get enough to eat and are pretty screwed up through no fault of their own. She once had a five year old girl throw a chair at her.. She has had the opportunity to go to other schools but gets attached to her kids despite their problems and feels she is doing some good. How many people would want to teach there if their pay was based on their students academic performance?

EA's get reviewed. You can do it and base the findings on where the student was and where they are now. Maybe not every student, but you can tell from a few students whether a particular teacher is helping or not. I've seen some obvious poor teachers, and I've seen teachers who are bullies. The principles and the other teachers know the good ones from the bad. So do parents if they watch and listen to the kids.

The teachers simply feel that they are above question - simple as that!

[TimG]

I don't think it is acceptable but I do think some people exaggerate that issue as an excuse to penalize all teachers.

In private enterprise 5% of the workforce is fired each year because they can't do the job. Only a fraction of a percent of teachers face the same fate. If we assume that teachers are no better or worse that people do other jobs that means 5% of teachers are incompetent and allowed to keep their jobs. This means 30,000 kids each year are harmed by incompetent teachers in BC. I don't think this is problem that should be ignored because it makes life more difficult for teachers that do do a good job. Edited August 29, 2014 by TimG

[Wilber]

EA's get reviewed. You can do it and base the findings on where the student was and where they are now. Maybe not every student, but you can tell from a few students whether a particular teacher is helping or not. I've seen some obvious poor teachers, and I've seen teachers who are bullies. The principles and the other teachers know the good ones from the bad. So do parents if they watch and listen to the kids.

The teachers simply feel that they are above question - simple as that!

I agree, there should be a way of dealing with obvious abusers and incompetents.

On edit: But I don't see what it has to do with this negotiation.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Wilber

[sharkman]

In private enterprise 5% of the workforce is fired each year because they can't do the job. Only a fraction of a percent of teachers face the same fate. If we assume that teachers are no better or worse that people do other jobs that means 5% of teachers are incompetent and allowed to keep their jobs. This means 30,000 kids each year are harmed by incompetent teachers in BC. I don't think this is problem that should be ignored because it makes life more difficult for teachers that do do a good job.

You focus on teachers as if they are the only sector or profession with weak members. Nurses, doctors, politicians, etc., all have some bad ones, the idea is to make them better I guess, not hold a firing over their heads. That really doesn't work in the long run. Fearful people make lousy workers, always covering their butts, lying, stressed out, etc. and those are some of the good, innocent people that should have nothing to fear.

Anyway, this is a sidebar discussion originally framed by people who get bitter at union wages. Unions are not going away simply because of some weak arguments. This strike is about a government that hasn't been serious about getting it resolved. They've got an endgame they are trying to achieve here and they'd give the teachers and students big funding cuts if they could get away with it. But they can't, and to add to their plight they've got a court decision hanging over their heads that they keep appealing instead of dealing with the reality of the situation. A perfect example was the HST. It was willful arrogance that made them think they could get away with it, and the voters made them take it back.

[sharkman]

Kids are dying, gas prices are going up, The CFL East is in shambles.....and someone worries about a bunch of whiny overpaid teachers?...no wait, let me correct that...There are major problems and some people get all bent out of shape over a T Shirt .Teachers?

you bet they do. Because when September hits and the kids got nowhere to go, the parents are going to scream bloody murder at both sides, as well they should. The government did jack squat all summer, and only made token appearances in front of the cameras once in a while hoping that the teachers would weaken. That won't happen until they start losing money, but they've got a hammer, the court judgements. It could be an ugly September.

[TimG]

You focus on teachers as if they are the only sector or profession with weak members. Nurses, doctors, politicians, etc., all have some bad ones, the idea is to make them better I guess, not hold a firing over their heads.

I suggested pay based on performance, not firing (but that is the other side of the coin). Except teachers don't want to be held accountable. They just want to do whatever job they think is good enough, collect their pay and go home. Teachers have never done anything to deserve that kind of trust.

Anyway, this is a sidebar discussion originally framed by people who get bitter at union wages.

Private sector unions are dying out because companies cannot stay in business given the cost structures demanded by the union. Public sector unions have a monopoly and exploit it unscrupulously. Even to the point where they support particular candidates with the expectation that these candidates will collude with them to extract even more from taxpayer. Governments are right to push back and set limits and given the monopoly position the only reasonable reference point is what the price sector pays for the same job. The union logic that they always deserve more pay than last year is completely out of touch with reality. Edited August 29, 2014 by TimG

[sharkman]

I suggested pay based on performance, not firing (but that is the other side of the coin). Except teachers don't want to be held accountable. They just want to do whatever job they think is good enough, collect their pay and go home. Teachers have never done anything to deserve that kind of trust.

Private sector unions are dying out because companies cannot stay in business given the cost structures demanded by the union. Public sector unions have a monopoly and exploit it unscrupulously. Even to the point where they support particular candidates with the expectation that these candidates will collude with them to extract even more from taxpayer. Governments are right to push back and set limits and given the monopoly position the only reasonable reference point is what the price sector pays for the same job. The union logic that they always deserve more pay than last year is completely out of touch with reality.

Many professions are not based on performance. To single out teachers may win supporters, but is it fair to pick on only one profession? The idea has merit, but let's face it, we will never totally get rid of lousy workers. Especially in Canada with its "human rights" now seemingly including pretty whimsical things.

Private sector seems to have done alright with the silly minimum wage, but hey, I don't want to get into some huge debate on the union. To me, the bottom line is BC teachers have been without a contract for over a year. They are lower paid than several other provinces. They have won 2 judgements against the Government for cancelling a contract that they signed.

They do have a point.

[TimG]

Many professions are not based on performance. To single out teachers may win supporters, but is it fair to pick on only one profession?

I don't single them out. I think the same for all classes of workers. But in this thread the subject are teachers.

The idea has merit, but let's face it, we will never totally get rid of lousy workers.

We will never get rid of tax evaders but that does not means we should not bother to set up a system designed to find them because it is an inconvenience for the majority of non-evaders.

They are lower paid than several other provinces.

So what? Professions with market based pay often find the pay in BC is lower because there is less demand and more supply. Getting paid less than other provinces is not an argument.

They have won 2 judgements against the Government for cancelling a contract that they signed.

And those judgments have nothing to do with wages. They certainly are not justifications for pay raises 10 years later. If anything those judgements mean the pay of teachers has to go down. Edited August 29, 2014 by TimG

[sharkman]

Comparing tax evaders(which is breaking the law) to lousy workers may reveal how badly you think of them, but they are far from the same thing. But with that revelation from you there is no point in meaningful discussion on my part. I guess the teachers should just be glad they have a job, eh?

[overthere]

Overpaid? teachers in BC are the lowest paid in Canada. But you are simply a teacher bashing troll void of facts.

There is a simple solution, and I learned this calculation from my Grade 5 teacher Mrs Muffle. Instead of raising the salaries of BC teachers so they can get the money they think they deserve, why not reduce the salaries of teachers in other provinces, keep the BC salaries where they are, drop the average overall and make BC teachers proudly the national salary leaders?

It's a win-win.

[Wilber]

We pay doctors according to the number of patients they can shove through their practice in a day, not according to the quality of care they give. I guess you would call that a market based system but does anyone think it is a good one?