Will Ukraine Be Partitioned?

[tinydancer]

Now back to the OP, I believe the Ukraine has been divided for many a year. I still can't figure for the life of me what old Nikita thought he was doing making a gift of Crimea to the Ukraine. But like so many foolish leaders in the past I suppose he just thought he could rearrange the puzzle pieces of ethnicity and still somehow make the pieces fit. Time and time again sadly we've seen the results over the years and it's not been pretty,

[Moonlight Graham]

Quick aside this looks to be a great board. I just fell into it today.

Welcome to the boards!

Edited March 5, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[jbg]

Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine. Russia has broken more than one international law in the process, and there should be swift reaction (which there wasn't and won't be). How any of this is up for debate is, well, beyond me.

You hit the nail on the head as to why I don't like "treaties" with countries of that variety. They take the benefits and eschew the burdens of those treaties.

[Argus]

With all due respect Crimea is an autonomous state. Parliament removed the sitting government and has set a date for a referendum of autonomy again in light of the recent developments with the coup in Kiev.

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-turchynov-appeal-calm-crimea-buildings-seized/25278931.html

How does this contradict anything I've said? I've already noted Crimea is an autonomous state. However, as I also said, holding a referendum under the noses of Russian troops is hardly going to give any kind of accurate assessment of the mood of the locals. That's particularly so given the veiled nature of the referendum question you cite. Will there be outside observers or will we simply accept the judgement of Russian soldiers as to the validity of the votes?

[Argus]

There is a 1997 agreement between the Ukraine and Russia which allows Russia to have up to 25,000 troops in Crimea. I have several sources but I'll give you the one from the LA Times.

Of course the US Administration doesn't agree that this makes Putin's move legitimate but Obama and Kerry have been running around strutting like Banty roosters so of course at this point in time they won't admit diddly squat.

the agreement concerns the Russian navy base, and says nothing about armed Russian troops taking control of civilian infrastructure as well as demanding Ukrainian troops surrender their weapons and vacate their bases.

Using this as an excuse is utterly absurd.

[Moonlight Graham]

Without being able to quote or copy and paste text from posts I cannot maintain a normal discussion.

I assume you use Internet Explorer as your web browser? If so, quotes and copy/paste functions are broken on this forum because of incompatibility between the forum's 3rd-party software and Internet Explorer 11. Blame it on Microsoft . Try Firefox or Chrome if you can and they should work fine.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[-TSS-]

It's funny how different standards are applied to politicians in different countries. After all, the people who seized power in Ukraine are nationalists and they are eagerly supported by the EU. Yet at the same time the home-grown nationalists in various EU-countries have been relegated into a pariah-status. They are considered as some sort of neo-nazis and racists.

[Michael Hardner]

It's funny how different standards are applied to politicians in different countries.

I don't think that's really true. One issue is about self-determination and national sovereignty while the other is about 'pure blood' type arguments.

[GostHacked]

I don't think that's really true. One issue is about self-determination and national sovereignty while the other is about 'pure blood' type arguments.

If one truly supports the notion of self-determination, and really recognizes national sovereignty then they would condemn any attack on any country from another. And they would tell both sides to step back in regards to Ukraine. The Ukraine is being pulled apart in two directions. One side is going to be upset no matter the outcome. Or both may get their way while Ukraine will be destroyed.

[Big Guy]

We sure get a lot of differing information about the Ukraine "crisis".

Russian UN Ambassador Vitaly Churkin pointed to the longstanding 25,000 troop allowance while FM Sergey Lavrov stressed the Russian military “strictly executes the agreements which stipulate the Russian fleet’s presence in Ukraine, and follows the stance and claims coming from the legitimate authority in Ukraine and in this case the legitimate authority of the Autonomous Republic Crimea as well.”

The following can be verified through a Google search;

1) A Russian naval presence in Crimea dates to 1783 when the port city of Sevastopol was founded by Russian Prince Grigory Potemkin. Crimea was part of Russia until Nikita Khruschev gave it to Ukraine in 1954.

2) In 1997, amid the wreckage of the USSR, Russia & Ukraine signed a Partition Treaty determining the fate of the military bases and vessels in Crimea. The deal sparked widespread officer ‘defections’ to Russia and was ratified by the Russian & Ukrainian parliaments in 1999. Russia received 81.7 percent of the fleet’s ships after paying the Ukrainian government US$526.5 million.

3) The deal allowed the Russian Black Sea Fleet to stay in Crimea until 2017. This was extended by another 25 years to 2042 with a 5-year extension option in 2010.

4) Moscow annually writes off $97.75 million of Kiev’s debt for the right to use Ukrainian waters and radio frequencies, and to compensate for the Black Sea Fleet’s environmental impact.

5) The Russian navy is allowed up to

- 25,000 troops,

- 24 artillery systems with a caliber smaller than 100 mm,

- 132 armored vehicles, and

- 22 military planes, on Crimean territory.

6) Five Russian naval units are stationed in the port city of Sevastopol, in compliance with the treaty:

- The 30th Surface Ship Division formed by the 11th Antisubmarine Ship Brigade. Comprises the Black Sea Fleet’s flagship guard missile cruiser Moskva as well as Kerch, Ochakov, Smetlivy, Ladny, and Pytlivy vessels, and the 197th Landing Ship Brigade, consisting of seven large amphibious vessels;

- The 41st Missile Boat Brigade includes the 166th Fast Attack Craft Division, consisting of Bora and Samum hovercrafts as well as small missile ships Mirazh and Shtil, and 295th missile Boat Division;

- The 247th Separate Submarine Division, consisting of two diesel submarines – B-871 Alrosa and B-380 Svyatoy Knyaz Georgy;

- The 68th Harbor Defense Ship Brigade formed by 4 vessels of the 400th Antisubmarine Ship Battalion and 418 Mine Hunting Ship Division respectively.;

- The 422nd Separate Hydrographic Ship Division boasts the Cheleken, Stvor, Donuzlav and GS-402 survey vessels and hydrographic boats.

7) Russia has two airbases in Crimea, in Kacha and Gvardeysky.

8) Russian coastal forces in Ukraine consist of the 1096th Separate Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment in Sevastopol and the 810th Marine Brigade, which hosts around 2,000 marines.

9) Russian naval units are permitted to implement security measures at their permanent post as well as during re-deployments in cooperation with Ukrainian forces, in accordance with Russia’s armed forces procedures.

Authorities in the Ukrainian Autonomous Republic of Crimea – where over half the population is Russian – requested Moscow’s assistance after the self-proclaimed government in Kiev introduced a law abolishing the use of languages other than Ukrainian in official circumstances.

It would be refreshing to get an objective analysis of the situation and that all "facts" be presented.

[dre]

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/03/05/353368/russia-could-sanction-usa-analyst/

Should Russia and its friends impose sanctions on countries like the US and Canada over their appalling behavior and idiotic coldwar rhetoric?

And has the US/CIA been trying to distabilize the country?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-was-a-playbook-cia-coup-detat/5371296

And is the government of Ukraine violating international law by attemption to prevent Crimea from succeeding?

According to the United Nations General Assembly Declaration of Principles of International Law and under the terms of the United Nations Charter, effectively the Russia population have a right to secede from Ukraine. In an interview with the Voice of Russia Harvard Professor Francis Boyle says that there is no real government in Ukraine right now, and called it a gang of neo-Nazis, fascists and rightist thugs

Edited March 5, 2014 by dre

[dre]

http://www.cnn.com/

Russia is now threatening economic action.

[ASIP]

I assume you use Internet Explorer as your web browser? If so, quotes and copy/paste functions are broken on this forum because of incompatibility between the forum's 3rd-party software and Internet Explorer 11. Blame it on Microsoft . Try Firefox or Chrome if you can and they should work fine.

Thank you, MG.

I am in NS, Canada. I am former yegmann, just lost my password (and no more YEG).

[ASIP]

We sure get a lot of differing information about the Ukraine "crisis".

Russian UN Ambassador Vitaly Churkin pointed to the longstanding 25,000 troop allowance while FM Sergey Lavrov stressed the Russian military “strictly executes the agreements which stipulate the Russian fleet’s presence in Ukraine, and follows the stance and claims coming from the legitimate authority in Ukraine and in this case the legitimate authority of the Autonomous Republic Crimea as well.”

The following can be verified through a Google search;

Great! Impressive collection of basic facts.

As you requested I provide some corrections.

1) Potemkin was in no way a prince. More appropriate title is Count.

Khrushev did not give Crimea to Ukraine. This is a typical myth. Soviet parliament did in accordance with Soviet constitution. The process of transfer started in late 1940s by Stalin and took about six years. Reason was purely economical. There is no land link between Russia and Crimea and Russia could not provide effective functionality of Crimea.

2), 3), 4) - correct.

5) 25,000 are not combat troops it's total personnel who are on payroll of Russia Ministry of Defence, This is mostly support staff. Agreement reads

Итого в составе Черноморского флота Российской Федерации на территории Украины военнослужащих - 25 тыс. человек, включая 1987 человек в морской пехоте и морской авиации наземного базирования.

including 1987 in marines and naval aviation based on land.

The rest of the items seem correct.

9) is not complete. Movement of Russian forces outside their bases must be agreed with Ukrainian authorities and are subject to Ukrainian laws. This is a principal item.

Authorities in the Ukrainian Autonomous Republic of Crimea – where over half the population is Russian – requested Moscow’s assistance after the self-proclaimed government in Kiev introduced a law abolishing the use of languages other than Ukrainian in official circumstances.

This is wrong.

Government in Kiev is not self-proclaimed. The new government (ministers) is assigned by the Ukrainian parliament that was democratically elected 7 years ago. The new government in Kiev is recognized by practically all countries (Canada included), UN and NATO. This is only Russia calls the current Ukrainian government "self-proclaimed". Self-proclaimed is a former criminal who calls himself "Prime Minister of Crimea, Commander in Chief of Crimean Armed Forces and Navy". Ukrainian court has already issued an arrest warrant for him, but now he is hiding behind Russia machine guns and grenade throwers. The guy with his thugs deposited legal Crimean government existed before February 26.

About the language law. Your interpretation is not correct. No new laws were introduced, rather an awkward language law introduced by Yanukovich to comply with the EU requirement for preservation of minority languages (NOT languages of ethnic minorities). This law was pain in ass for businesses. Use of other languages was not prohibited - it was automatically regulated by a law of 1992. Simultaneously, a decision was taken to develop a better law on the subject. Seeing that this step was used as pretext to raise nationalist wave by Russia, the interim president did not sign implementation of this bill. Yes, it was a tactical mistake of this new government.

Edited March 6, 2014 by ASIP

[ASIP]

After all, the people who seized power in Ukraine are nationalists and they are eagerly supported by the EU.

This is a blatant lie. Power in Ukraine is not seized. The parliament is still the same, only pro Russian president-usurper fled the country. This is why the new Ukrainian government has no problem with recognition by Canada, US, NATO, EU, UN etc.

Edited March 6, 2014 by ASIP

[ASIP]

With all due respect Crimea is an autonomous state. Parliament removed the sitting government and has set a date for a referendum of autonomy again in light of the recent developments with the coup in Kiev.

Ha-ha!

1. Can you tell us details how "the sitting government" was removed? Answer: by handful boys along with Russian commandos in a locked building, no secretaries (no records), no press, no cell phones.

2. It is very interesting to hear on what legal base the new Crimean PM was established. Answer: Just claiming "I am a boss!"

3. What coup in Kiev are you talking about? Answer: There was civil unrest in Kiev, not coup.

4. What law is for the referendum procedure? Who will be observers? Answer: There is no established procedure for a referendum in provinces, a referendum on important questions are to be in the whole country. Observers will be Russian troops. They will count votes too. This "referendum" is scheduled for March 30. Today the Crimean "self-defence" did not allow a representative of UN to enter Crimea.

[August1991]

Khrushev did not give Crimea to Ukraine. This is a typical myth. Soviet parliament did in accordance with Soviet constitution. The process of transfer started in late 1940s by Stalin and took about six years. Reason was purely economical. There is no land link between Russia and Crimea and Russia could not provide effective functionality of Crimea.

I love this.

ASIP, your comment is so typical of eastern European nationalists, or nationalists in general.

As Trudeau Snr once said rhetorically: "They would make of west Montreal the Danzig of the New World."

-----

I reckon that nationalists (such as you ASIP) live in a zero-sum world. If the other side gets more land, we have less land. And land is the ultimate zero-sum game.

[ASIP]

I love this.

ASIP, your comment is so typical of eastern European nationalists, or nationalists in general.

As Trudeau Snr once said rhetorically: "They would make of west Montreal the Danzig of the New World."

Sorry, I presented facts. Do you have any problem with them?

Edited March 6, 2014 by ASIP

[Argus]

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/03/05/353368/russia-could-sanction-usa-analyst/

Should Russia and its friends impose sanctions on countries like the US and Canada over their appalling behavior and idiotic coldwar rhetoric?

So you're angry that Canada and the West disputes the Russians right to invade a democratic neighbor and take over its territory? Would you like to give us some background on why you feel the world would be a better place if powerful nations were allowed to simply invade any neighbour they want on any pretext? It should make for interesting reading.

[Argus]

I love this.

ASIP, your comment is so typical of eastern European nationalists, or nationalists in general.

As Trudeau Snr once said rhetorically: "They would make of west Montreal the Danzig of the New World."

-----

I reckon that nationalists (such as you ASIP) live in a zero-sum world. If the other side gets more land, we have less land. And land is the ultimate zero-sum game.

First, you haven't established he's a nationalist. What criteria do you have for stating he is other than he's admitted he came here from Ukrainia and isn't happy about Russia's invasion? Or would you apply the term 'nationalist' to ANY Ukrainian who was unhappy about Russia's invasion?

And by the way, give you yourself have admitted to being a nationalist (separatist) don't you find it more than a little hypocritical to be sneering at someone you presume to also be a nationalist?

Second, what he wrote made perfect sense to me. Why do you find it so amusing? Is it simply because you have a lot of sympathy for the Russians? I believe you've written about traveling in Russia before and very much liked the place.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Argus

[bleeding heart]

...why you feel the world would be a better place if powerful nations were allowed to simply invade any neighbor they want on any pretext?

Replace "neighbor" with "country" and we've got your radical support for the Iraq War.

"Interesting reading" indeed.

Edited March 7, 2014 by bleeding heart

[dre]

So you're angry that Canada and the West disputes the Russians right to invade a democratic neighbor and take over its territory? Would you like to give us some background on why you feel the world would be a better place if powerful nations were allowed to simply invade any neighbour they want on any pretext? It should make for interesting reading.

The Crimean government and most of its people WANTED the Russians there. Its entirely up to them to decide on their own future, and thats exactly what they are going to do whether we piss and whine about it or not.

We should not be in the business of opposing the right of people to self determination. And we should be recognizing or allying ourself with the "so called" government of Ukraine whos leader came into power as a result violence and has never had a single vote cast for him.

The Ukrainian government has no jurrisdiction in Crimea anymore... The Crimean government has voted to sever its ties with them. End of story.

[-TSS-]

There's not a chance that the EU would take up sanctions against Russia as Germany receives 30% of its energy in the form of Russian gas. Germany is not the only one. Finland is another.

[dre]

There's not a chance that the EU would take up sanctions against Russia as Germany receives 30% of its energy in the form of Russian gas. Germany is not the only one. Finland is another.

Not to mention the Brussels Bunglers (European Parliament) have no army to back up any of their empty threats, and member states would laugh if they were asked to put boots on the ground in Ukraine.

[jbg]

The Crimean government and most of its people WANTED the Russians there. Its entirely up to them to decide on their own future, and thats exactly what they are going to do whether we piss and whine about it or not.

Is it OK if DeGaulle chants "Vive le Quebec libre"?