Will Ukraine Be Partitioned?

[GostHacked]

Unfortunately, Russia has completely undermined the #1 pillar that the UN and international law stands for, and the world cannot accept this behaviour.

The UN undermines itself with being ineffective to prevent wars and conflicts. Dead on arrival.

[dre]

No they won't. It's probably going to take military threats from NATO, with possible military maneuvering into the area, and maybe even a stare-down of forces. Putin obviously believes Crimea is rightfully a part of Russia, so this is a huge crisis not seen since probably the 1990 Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

Unfortunately, Russia has completely undermined the #1 pillar that the UN and international law stands for, and the world cannot accept this behaviour. If Russia doesn't back down this is something that NATO may need to go to war over. What I see as more likely is, after serious military threats from NATO, Russia and NATO agreeing to allow Crimea to have a referendum over its future. Hopefully Russia doesn't invade the rest of the Ukraine. John Kerry is right, this is 19th century behaviour. Extremely dangerous precedent and doesn't belong in a post-WWII world.

The problem is we have squandered any credibility we might have had to influence Russia by sacking random middle eastern countries and causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, setting up torture camps, abroad and so on.

Russia knows that no western or nato country will put boots on the ground to stop it, and it knows western countries are run by idiots and theives on borrowed money.

The best we can hope for is that Russia encourages a political solution then leaves... or partitions the country.

[Argus]

I think their interest is basically the same as when they invaded georgia. There are large majorities of Russian speaking people in parts of the break-away soviet countries.

In any case, countries like the US and Canada have as much moral authority to critisize Russia for this intervention as Jeffrey Dalmer has to critisize a child-care facility.

Thanks for so clearly expressing the Leftist anti-West sentiment here. But I've never understood why people like you don't go and live in places like Russia when you hate freedom and democracy so much.

Either you are shockingly and laughably ignorant of what life in Russia is like, and what Russia has been doing in the world (probable) or you're simply letting your rabid hate for Americans and the West guide you without a thought or care about what you're talking about. Or more likely both.

[Argus]

Because 20 years ago Russia was weak, still reeling from over 70 years of communist repression. Today, it is in a much stronger position, and it is keen on restoring itself to what it sees as its rightful place in the world. And the first step of that is uniting all Russian-speaking peoples under its banner. The second step is uniting all Slavic peoples in a new union.

Whether they want to live under a vile, corrupt dictatorship or not...

And what's the step following that one?

[Moonlight Graham]

The UN undermines itself with being ineffective to prevent wars and conflicts. Dead on arrival.

The UN doesn't work if members of the Security Council do exactly what it was created to prevent.

[Argus]

Who, exactly, is going to make Russia leave the Crimea? Economic sanctions won't work here.

Perhaps not, but economic sanctions which damage Russia's economy as much as possible will help the rest of us in that a poor Russia is a less well-armed Russia.

[Boges]

There does seem to be interesting similarities to this and the start of WW2. The Western world was rather meth when Germany invaded took over places that already had large German populations. (Austria, Sudetenland)

But if they move beyond Crimea, will the West put their foot down or will it be met with Chamberlainesque appeasement.

[Argus]

Maybe they will leave once things are stable there, like they did in Georgia. Or maybe the people there dont want them to leave.

In both Georgia and in Ukraine it was Russia which created the instability in the first place in order to make use of it for their geopolitical agenda.

And they haven't left Georgia. They still occupy the two provinces they took by military conquest.

[Boges]

Perhaps not, but economic sanctions which damage Russia's economy as much as possible will help the rest of us in that a poor Russia is a less well-armed Russia.

Russia is an oil and natural gas power. They'll have no problem finding customers for that.

[Argus]

They are actually. Read up on it. Crimeans welcomed the Russian forces with open arms.

To be more accurate, some Russian people there have welcomed the Russian military with open arms.

The rest are cowering in their homes, and know very well if they dare to go out to express disagreement they'll be beaten.

[Argus]

Besides, its probably only a matter of time until the Russians are the good guys again.

I don't recall any time in the last century or so when the Russians were the good guys.

[Argus]

I think its more about the west then the Russians. People in these kinds of places used to see the west as a symbol of hope and freedom. Major western countries are now symbols of torture, mass murder, political subversion, and plunder.

Uhm, no, they're not. Sorry. I know you'd LIKE them to be, but they're not. Honestly! Try reading something other than your extreme left blogs sometime. People want to go to Europe and the US and Canada. Nobody seems to be eager to go to Russia. All those Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine haven't been flooding across the border as illegal immigrants, now have they. Russia doesn't have to worry about hordes of Poles and Bulgarians eagerly crossing their borders for the glorious life of freedom you seem to believe they'd get there.

[Argus]

The problem is we have squandered any credibility we might have had to influence Russia by sacking random middle eastern countries and causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, setting up torture camps, abroad and so on.

You squeal in anguish at the occasional drone strike but when Russia lines up hundreds of heavy artillery pieces wheel to wheel and blasts the hell out of whole cities you just go "Meh".

[GostHacked]

Thanks for so clearly expressing the Leftist anti-West sentiment here. But I've never understood why people like you don't go and live in places like Russia when you hate freedom and democracy so much.

No one is spewing anti-west Leftist sentiment here. This is simply you baiting.

Either you are shockingly and laughably ignorant of what life in Russia is like, and what Russia has been doing in the world (probable) or you're simply letting your rabid hate for Americans and the West guide you without a thought or care about what you're talking about. Or more likely both.

Life in Russia? Have you seen other places of the world recently and how life is like? Russia in comparison is doing alright.

And how about the current life of the Ukrainian people?

Edited March 3, 2014 by GostHacked

[Argus]

Russia is an oil and natural gas power. They'll have no problem finding customers for that.

So is Iran. Sanctions seriously damaged Iran's economy. Just for a start we should stop western companies from helping the Russians develop and maintain their oil assets. Like the Iranians, the Russians have very little ability to undertake such work themselves.

[Moonlight Graham]

The problem is we have squandered any credibility we might have had to influence Russia by sacking random middle eastern countries and causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, setting up torture camps, abroad and so on.

Agreed.

Russia knows that no western or nato country will put boots on the ground to stop it, and it knows western countries are run by idiots and theives on borrowed money.

Russia suspects this may be the case, it's testing the US & the West, but this is why NATO has to be prepared for military action against Russia on this as a worst-case scenario or else it sets an extremely dangerous precedent where autocrats around the world will feel they can invade/annex any neighbouring territory without the US/NATO/the West doing anything about it . It also tells Russia that they can get away with doing the same thing in other territory.

[Argus]

No one is spewing anti-west Leftist sentiment here. This is simply you baiting.

Maybe as one of the spewers you simply don't recognize it.

Life in Russia? Have you seen other places of the world recently and how life is like? Russia in comparison is doing alright.

The only Russians doing all right at those in a few of the show cities (and not all of them by a long shot) and the kleptocrats running things. Russia's oil wealth is being looted by Putin and his people, not spent on the people.

And how about the current life of the Ukrainian people?

Up until now it's been getting increasingly worse due to its puppet Russian leader who, like his master, stole vast sums of money from his people and country, misruled it, and ran an increasingly autocratic regime. Perhaps it might get better now.

[GostHacked]

Russia suspects this may be the case, it's testing the US & the West, but this is why NATO has to be prepared for military action against Russia on this as a worst-case scenario or else it sets an extremely dangerous precedent where autocrats around the world will feel they can invade/annex any neighbouring territory without the US/NATO/the West doing anything about it . It also tells Russia that they can get away with doing the same thing in other territory.

Maybe something behind the scenes. Negotiating, 'Ok you can have Iraq, we will take Crimea, you can have this, we will take that.'.

Russia did nothing with regards to Iraq or Afghanistan.

[GostHacked]

Maybe as one of the spewers you simply don't recognize it.

No one here is apologizing for Russia's actions. Simply putting into context over the past couple decades with other superpowers tromping all over the place.

The only Russians doing all right at those in a few of the show cities (and not all of them by a long shot) and the kleptocrats running things. Russia's oil wealth is being looted by Putin and his people, not spent on the people.

Right, that seems to be a mantra for all global international or state oil companies. Profit, who cares about anything else.

Up until now it's been getting increasingly worse due to its puppet Russian leader who, like his master, stole vast sums of money from his people and country, misruled it, and ran an increasingly autocratic regime. Perhaps it might get better now.

Only if the system is changed to prevent that kind of abuse in the future. I have little faith that that will actually take place.

Edited March 3, 2014 by GostHacked

[dre]

Thanks for so clearly expressing the Leftist anti-West sentiment here. But I've never understood why people like you don't go and live in places like Russia when you hate freedom and democracy so much.

Either you are shockingly and laughably ignorant of what life in Russia is like, and what Russia has been doing in the world (probable) or you're simply letting your rabid hate for Americans and the West guide you without a thought or care about what you're talking about. Or more likely both.

This is just a bunch of idiotic noise.

[dre]

Uhm, no, they're not. Sorry. I know you'd LIKE them to be, but they're not. Honestly! Try reading something other than your extreme left blogs sometime. People want to go to Europe and the US and Canada. Nobody seems to be eager to go to Russia. All those Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine haven't been flooding across the border as illegal immigrants, now have they. Russia doesn't have to worry about hordes of Poles and Bulgarians eagerly crossing their borders for the glorious life of freedom you seem to believe they'd get there.

More noise... I never said anything about life in Russia being good, or people wanting to move there. Youre appear to be just ranting about random stuff that has nothing to do with the conversation.

Harper, Obama, Brown, Kerry et all, are the geopolitical equivalents of a drunk at the holdem poker table trying to bluff after theyve already shown everyone their cards.

They arent gonna do squat and Russia knows it. And after a couple of weeks you will realize that too.

Edited March 3, 2014 by dre

[Moonlight Graham]

Maybe something behind the scenes. Negotiating, 'Ok you can have Iraq, we will take Crimea, you can have this, we will take that.'.

Russia did nothing with regards to Iraq or Afghanistan.

Russia doesn't border Iraq or Afghanistan. Also, Bush Jr. wouldn't have cared at all what Russia thought when invading those countries.

[GostHacked]

Russia doesn't border Iraq or Afghanistan. Also, Bush Jr. wouldn't have cared at all what Russia thought when invading those countries.

It was a message to Iran which has some Russian support. But if Bush would not care if Russia invaded those countries, what does that tell us? No one cares if certain countries are invaded, but others are? Why the double standards?

[jbg]

Thanks for so clearly expressing the Leftist anti-West sentiment here. But I've never understood why people like you don't go and live in places like Russia when you hate freedom and democracy so much.

Either you are shockingly and laughably ignorant of what life in Russia is like, and what Russia has been doing in the world (probable) or you're simply letting your rabid hate for Americans and the West guide you without a thought or care about what you're talking about. Or more likely both.

Or why they don't start a "BDS" or "boycott, disinvestment, sanctions" movement (link, excerpt from site below) against Russia the way they have against Israel.

n 2005, Palestinian civil society issued a call for a campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel until it complies with international law and Palestinian rights. A truly global movement against Israeli Apartheid is rapidly emerging in response to this call.

[GostHacked]

Or why they don't start a "BDS" or "boycott, disinvestment, sanctions" movement (link, excerpt from site below) against Russia the way they have against Israel.

If it has been ineffectual with holding Israel responsible, then it has even less of a chance of holding Russia responsible. Sanctions won't work on countries the size of Russia. You will need a large group of countries to come together to accomplish that. But as soon as that happens, Europe runs the risk of not having a source for gas and oil, which it seems that Russia is a major source of those two items.