In Canada, old-aged poverty on the rise

[eyeball]

I refuse to discount the extent of corruption and sheer venality that saturates the management of our economy and the impact this has on people's savings, investments and opportunities. On top of this are some truly ridiculous expenditures that have left economic millstones around society's neck i.e the war on drugs, the war of terror et al.

And of course, we just don't have the planet for the easy taking that we had in the not so distant past. The natural capital, that is the actual physical material we need to fuel our economy, is simply running out, including the ability of the environment to absorb our economy's waste stream.

The last thing we need is the hard-assed attitude and moral imperative that insists that people who are losing out or sliding backwards just have to crack down harder, get tougher, roll their sleeves up past their ears if needs be to make ends meet and quit whining. All while watching income gaps widen faster than ever?

Good luck with that.

[ironstone]

OECD, says old-aged poverty is on the rise, and could become worse as Canadians aged. Women, seem to be the hardness hit and jobs for seniors are not plentiful and not many seniors can physically work. The problem for the Tories, is seniors DO vote and many who support this party may think twice before doing so. http://www.benefitscanada.com/news/in-canada-old-age-poverty-on-the-rise-oecd-46629

I'm not sure about the situation in the rest of Canada,but how much are the policies of the McGuinty/Wynne government helping Ontario seniors?I hear all kinds of horror stories about seniors struggling to pay hydro bills thanks largely to the idiotic Green Energy Act.This is just one aspect of life for everyone as well,plenty of other expensive issues to deal with.

I try to save for my own retirement but I have a hard time believing I can live out my life in my home province simply because I don't think I can afford to live here in the future.

[kimmy]

I'm not sure about the situation in the rest of Canada,but how much are the policies of the McGuinty/Wynne government helping Ontario seniors?I hear all kinds of horror stories about seniors struggling to pay hydro bills thanks largely to the idiotic Green Energy Act.This is just one aspect of life for everyone as well,plenty of other expensive issues to deal with.

I try to save for my own retirement but I have a hard time believing I can live out my life in my home province simply because I don't think I can afford to live here in the future.

Energy prices are going up everywhere. Every kind of energy. BC Hydro is dramatically boosting electricity rates this year, and I don't think anybody needs to be reminded about where the price of fossil fuels is going. And guess what, you haven't seen anything yet. It's only going to get worse.

I hate to sound callous, but once again, I have a hard time feeling sorry for seniors who find rising energy costs are cramping their style. You guys got to enjoy cheap energy for most of your lives; that's money you got to save for your retirement or spend on assets. I have another 5 decades to pay the higher energy costs that are the reality of life in the 21st century. That's money I don't get to save for my retirement.

As old-people are fond of telling today's youth to "suck it up", I offer the same advice to seniors struggling with higher energy costs: put on a sweater; move to a smaller home; sell your Crown Vic and buy a bus pass.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

I have another 5 decades to pay the higher energy costs that are the reality of life in the 21st century. That's money I don't get to save for my retirement.

Many of today's elderly are not boomers and consumed far less energy per capita than today.

[kimmy]

The surprise in this is that Canada lags behind other OECD countries in supporting seniors.

Kinda blows the myth of Canada's strong social safety net.

However, while old-age poverty declined in 20 OECD countries between 2007 and 2010, poverty among Canadas seniors increased by about two percentage points over the same period, according to the OECD.

.

That's a slimy statistic, because it's meaningless without the actual numbers. "Audiences at theaters for Mars Needs Moms doubled in the second week!" sounds impressive until you discover that only 4 people saw the movie in the first week.

If somebody says "Poverty rates among seniors in OECD nations fell during this period, but it increased in Canada!" it makes it sound like Canada is falling behind.

But if you look at the raw data you might find that (for example) senior poverty rates in Estonia, Greece, Chile, Mexico, and Spain dropped from 55% to 50% while senior poverty rates in Canada went from 8% to 10%.

Another reason for the rise of old-age poverty in Canada is that the elderly see slower income growth compared to the working-age population, according to the OECD.The report also notes that public transfers make up a relatively small share of senior citizens income in Canada: less than 39%, compared with 59%, on average, in the OECD.

And this is another statistic designed to impress people who are easily impressed by statistics. It's intended to deceive people who are bad at math or lack critical thinking skills. I assume you're repeating something some lobby group posted; only a lobby group would use statistics in such a dishonest manner.

If you hear that Ernie received 25% of his apples as gifts from Mr Hooper, and Bert only received 10% of his apples as a gift from Mr Hooper, you might be inclined to think that maybe Mr Hooper likes Ernie better than Bert. But if you look at the actual data, you discover that Mr Hooper gave each of them one apple; Ernie had three apples of his own, while Bert had nine apples of his own!

If seniors in Canada receive 39% of their money from public transfers, compared to 59% on average for OECD nations, it probably means that seniors in Canada have considerably more of their own savings to draw from than their counterparts in most OECD nations. 59% of an average Estonian retiree's income could consist of 3 potatoes per week for all I know.

There are many people who are unexpectedly becoming dependent on senior assistance - over 55 and lost businesses since 2008, no savings, no pension plan, no business equity that was going to fund their retirement, and no prospects - just when our seniors safety net is losing ground.

Yes, 2008 was rough. Suck it up.

Savings wiped out by risky business ventures or not, seniors in Canada receive a ton of support. Medicine, income, housing, transportation. Even those who somehow lived through the greatest era of economic prosperity in the history of our species yet somehow didn't manage to save anything still have their needs covered by our very kind social safety net.

Whiner boomer babies kimmy et al can sit and rotate.

Not all "boomers" are living large on their kids taxes. Not all can be accused of having fat pensions.

Many raised their kids on $75-$100k incomes that have now TOTALLY disappeared! They can't help their kids with student debt and buying houses as they had hoped.

Suck it up! Stop resenting your elders because they can't support you in the style they raised you!

You have your health and energy.

Not so easy for those starting again after 60!

.

Wait, you're asking me to feel sorry for people who were earning $100k and somehow don't have money to buy houses for their kids? I find that quite amusing.

Seniors who are truly hard pressed today can stretch their CPP and OAS money by learning to enjoy Mr Noodles and No-Name macaroni and cheese, buying taxpayer-subsidized transit-passes instead of clogging the roads by driving 20km/h below the speed limit with their left-turn signal permanently on, moving to smaller and less expensive homes, and many other money-saving tips... the exact same money-saving tips that you people are dispensing to today's young people.

BTW I do own my own home and I haven't received a nickel of support from my parents if that's a concern.

-k

[kimmy]

Aging parents don't have "student loan debt".

So what's their excuse? Why are they telling us they need more public money?

Many of today's elderly are not boomers and consumed far less energy per capita than today.

So?

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

So what's their excuse? Why are they telling us they need more public money?

Because that's what the Liberals promised for more votes.

So?

So today's Canadians are much bigger per-capita energy pigs than before....so pay for it.

[On Guard for Thee]

Because that's what the Liberals promised for more votes.

So today's Canadians are much bigger per-capita energy pigs than before....so pay for it.

Perhaps you need a little bit of a geography lesson. Do you know where Canada is to start off. Well it's north, way north of you. It's in a place that gets cold a lot. Therefore we need heat, or we wil die. That's one of the reasons we consume a lot of energy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Perhaps you need a little bit of a geography lesson. Do you know where Canada is to start off. Well it's north, way north of you. It's in a place that gets cold a lot. Therefore we need heat, or we wil die. That's one of the reasons we consume a lot of energy.

Nope....I live farther north than many Canadians. My geography is fine.

[kimmy]

Because that's what the Liberals promised for more votes.

Sounds about right. A cynical attempt to buy old-people votes at the expense of people who aren't old enough to vote yet.

I recall it didn't work for Willard and Jughead in the past Presidential election, even though they did decisively win the old-people vote. I don't see that it is smart politics in Canada either, because we who are born after 1964 are already scheduled to receive less and later than those born before 1964. Offering today's old people more at the expense of tomorrow's old-people who've already agreed to less seems like bad math from a vote-buying perspective.

So today's Canadians are much bigger per-capita energy pigs than before....so pay for it.

Sounds like excellent advice for the seniors complaining that high energy costs are ruining their retirement plans.

Perhaps you need a little bit of a geography lesson. Do you know where Canada is to start off. Well it's north, way north of you. It's in a place that gets cold a lot. Therefore we need heat, or we wil die. That's one of the reasons we consume a lot of energy.

Nice going, sucker. You took his bait. He says "hur-de-dur Canadians hur-de-dur" and you get indignant and go off on a tangent that's completely unrelated to the thread. Good job.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

.... because we who are born after 1964 are already scheduled to receive less and later than those born before 1964.

Perhaps if that same demographic voted more, their interests would prevail. Seniors will/are paying more for energy, just like everybody else, but they didn't consume as much years ago.

[kimmy]

Perhaps if that same demographic voted more, their interests would prevail.

Not as far fetched as you think, as Willard and Jughead discovered.

Seniors will/are paying more for energy, just like everybody else,

They certainly will. But that won't stop the Boomers from demanding home heating subsidies for their elderly parents, will it. "My mother can barely afford the natural gas to warm up her cat food! When is the government going to do something to help?!"

but they didn't consume as much years ago.

So what? Do you propose some kind of lifetime fossil-fuel allowance or something? If not, why should I care how much gas or oil my grandparents used?

And certainly, my grandparents used relatively little energy during their lives. They lived in sod houses half the year and roomed with families in town for the other half, and heated their homes with wood they cut while clearing their land, and didn't have electricity until the late 1960s, and only drove to town once a month. They were frugal, to say the least.

But I don't think the same can be said for the boomers who drove around cars with 400 cubic inch engines getting 6mpg for much of their lives, heating 4 bedroom homes, and so on.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

Not as far fetched as you think, as Willard and Jughead discovered.

It's not complicated....government will take money from those who have it and give it to grandma.

They certainly will. But that won't stop the Boomers from demanding home heating subsidies for their elderly parents, will it. "My mother can barely afford the natural gas to warm up her cat food! When is the government going to do something to help?!"

Meh....we already have "young people" getting energy, food, rent, health care, and god knows what else subsidies.

So what? Do you propose some kind of lifetime fossil-fuel allowance or something? If not, why should I care how much gas or oil my grandparents used?

Ummm....then why did you bring it up ?

And certainly, my grandparents used relatively little energy during their lives. They lived in sod houses half the year and roomed with families in town for the other half, and heated their homes with wood they cut while clearing their land, and didn't have electricity until the late 1960s, and only drove to town once a month. They were frugal, to say the least.

So what's the problem ? You can do the same.

But I don't think the same can be said for the boomers who drove around cars with 400 cubic inch engines getting 6mpg for much of their lives, heating 4 bedroom homes, and so on.

Oldest boomers are only about 68 years young....lots of older grannies with hungry cats. You will feed them whether you want to or not.

[kimmy]

It's not complicated....government will take money from those who have it and give it to grandma.

Meh....we already have "young people" getting energy, food, rent, health care, and god knows what else subsidies.

We have poor people getting subsidies, be they young or old. And I have no complaints about helping the truly needy.

Ummm....then why did you bring it up ?

I was responding to an older-person complaining about the effect that rising energy costs will have on his lifestyle. That should have been obvious.

Oldest boomers are only about 68 years young....lots of older grannies with hungry cats. You will feed them whether you want to or not.

Yes, we will continue to care for the elderly. The question is what is a reasonable standard of living. And in a society where everybody else is being told to settle for less, it's hilarious that the elderly and the boomers approaching retirement are telling us that they need more.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

We have poor people getting subsidies, be they young or old. And I have no complaints about helping the truly needy.

Wow...are you becoming a "Republican" ? "Willard" would be proud.

Yes, we will continue to care for the elderly. The question is what is a reasonable standard of living. And in a society where everybody else is being told to settle for less, it's hilarious that the elderly and the boomers approaching retirement are telling us that they need more.

The standard is way higher than it use to be. Can't say I mind much, 'cause I'm a boomer !

[ironstone]

Energy prices are going up everywhere. Every kind of energy. BC Hydro is dramatically boosting electricity rates this year, and I don't think anybody needs to be reminded about where the price of fossil fuels is going. And guess what, you haven't seen anything yet. It's only going to get worse.

I hate to sound callous, but once again, I have a hard time feeling sorry for seniors who find rising energy costs are cramping their style. You guys got to enjoy cheap energy for most of your lives; that's money you got to save for your retirement or spend on assets. I have another 5 decades to pay the higher energy costs that are the reality of life in the 21st century. That's money I don't get to save for my retirement.

As old-people are fond of telling today's youth to "suck it up", I offer the same advice to seniors struggling with higher energy costs: put on a sweater; move to a smaller home; sell your Crown Vic and buy a bus pass.

-k

I am not a senior citizen yet but I would have a hard time telling any senior to "suck it up".There are enough old timers still around that still remember the great depression or the second world war.And not every senior is getting a comfy gov't pension either.

As for electricity in Ontario,the Green Energy Act is a giant step backwards.The Liberals have taken the most inefficient,costly path imaginable and we will pay for it for a very long time.

You are out of touch if you think all seniors are spoiled.

[Bonam]

I am not a senior citizen yet but I would have a hard time telling any senior to "suck it up".There are enough old timers still around that still remember the great depression or the second world war.

They sucked it up then, they can suck it up again now. 70 years is a nice long break from WWII.

[ironstone]

They sucked it up then, they can suck it up again now. 70 years is a nice long break from WWII.

We are talking about the basic necessities of life here,like being able to heat one's home and eating enough.And you tell struggling seniors to suck it up?

Pathetic.

[kimmy]

I am not a senior citizen yet but I would have a hard time telling any senior to "suck it up".There are enough old timers still around that still remember the great depression or the second world war.And not every senior is getting a comfy gov't pension either.

As for electricity in Ontario,the Green Energy Act is a giant step backwards.The Liberals have taken the most inefficient,costly path imaginable and we will pay for it for a very long time.

You are out of touch if you think all seniors are spoiled.

I don't recall saying all seniors are spoiled. But what of it?

Using the plight of seniors to complain about the Green Energy Act is just cheap political opportunism. "Look at my poor shivering grandma! She can't heat her home! End this law now!" Grandma's heating bills are going up regardless of where she lives. The cost of energy is going up. Do you think seniors should be exempt from the real world or something? Should seniors get their heating bills and gasoline costs permanently subsidized to 1979 levels?

Hey, look at my sad kitty! See how sad my kitty is? My kitty is sad because high taxes give me less money to buy kitty-treats. I need lower taxes so that my kitty will be less sad! Why won't the politicians think of my poor kitty?

-k

[Argus]

It's hard to get a handle on the issue of seniors. Sure there are some who wasted money and played when they should have been saving, but there are also those who never had a chance to save due to low incomes. If you're a store clerk your whole life, how much do you think you're going to save anyway? Especially if you have any kids. Not all boomers breezed through life in big cars and nice lazy ass, overpaid jobs. Which means CPP/OAS/GIS are about all they're going to have. Still, that pays a good deal more than welfare. Of course, people on welfare normally live in very small apartments, and often share apartments. I don't see why, given the money being paid to seniors, the government can't provide some housing services, which the seniors can pay for. Maybe they could organize an apartment sharing thing where seniors can pair off to save money.

The biggest issue I see facing us about seniors is the lack of housing for those who can no longer look after themselves. In generations past they'd be taken care of by their kids, but the boomers generally didn't go in for big families (though still bigger than what couples have today), and working while taking care of someone who is physically/mentally disabled can be pretty hard, if not impossible. There are far too few nursing homes (never mind old age homes), and the results are that elderly disabled are jamming up hospital beds. We need to put a lot of funding into building a proper network of nursing homes. And for those who are young and resent it, remember that the families of today are even smaller than the boomers. Who's going to take care of you when you're old and not able to take care of yourself?

[BC_chick]

My own plan is a graceful exit from life as soon as it becomes clear that I have no alternative but to spend the rest of my days in an institution, however, if this plan is hindered by a busy-body government making it difficult for me to follow the plan then I would expect the government to provide some support since they are the ones making things difficult - not my kids.

Remember when you were a teenager and you thought 30 was over the hill? What was there to live for after that, really?

Well, you might change your mind about 80 too once you actually get there.

Edited February 23, 2014 by BC_chick

[jacee]

That's a slimy statistic, because it's meaningless without the actual numbers. "Audiences at theaters for Mars Needs Moms doubled in the second week!" sounds impressive until you discover that only 4 people saw the movie in the first week.

If somebody says "Poverty rates among seniors in OECD nations fell during this period, but it increased in Canada!" it makes it sound like Canada is falling behind.

Read it again. That's exactly what it says.

Seniors who are truly hard pressed today can stretch their CPP and OAS money by learning to enjoy Mr Noodles and No-Name macaroni and cheese,

Now there's a diet that'll kill them off quicker!

buying taxpayer-subsidized transit-passes instead of clogging the roads by driving 20km/h below the speed limit with their left-turn signal permanently on, moving to smaller and less expensive homes,

I gather you are familiar only with affluent seniors. That's not who we're talking about. Nice ageist stereotype!

BTW I do own my own home and I haven't received a nickel of support from my parents if that's a concern.

-k

So what are you complaining about?

.

[jacee]

TimG, on 10 Feb 2014 - 1:04 PM, said:My own plan is a graceful exit from life as soon as it becomes clear that I have no alternative but to spend the rest of my days in an institution, however, if this plan is hindered by a busy-body government making it difficult for me to follow the plan ...

Nobody's stopping you from making your "graceful exit" under your own power!

[kimmy]

Read it again. That's exactly what it says.

It says that poverty rates among seniors in Canada increased, while poverty rates among OECD nations as a whole decreased. Big deal.

Why don't we compare the actual numbers? Here's the data (PDF). That study says that Canada has the among the lowest poverty rates among seniors in the OECD. Canadian seniors are better off than seniors in all but a handful of these nations that we are supposedly falling behind. In short, Canada is not falling behind, other nations are catching up.

The study says the poverty rate for Canadian seniors is 5.9 percent (from the above PDF).

The poverty rate for the Canadian population as a whole is 12 percent (from the same PDF).

The poverty rate for Canadian children is 14.3 percent.

So tell me again how tough seniors in Canada have it. Go ahead and tell me how the group whose poverty rate is half the national average is the group that needs more support from the government.

Now there's a diet that'll kill them off quicker!

Sauce for the goose, as old-people would say. Maybe financially struggling seniors could take some of their own advice. Move to a smaller home, eat cheaper, get a room-mate...

I gather you are familiar only with affluent seniors. That's not who we're talking about. Nice ageist stereotype!

Stereotypes abound. Currently the big stereotype being peddled is that young people are shiftless complainers who expect everything in life to be handed to them. There's been oodles of media articles on that theme. I've linked to articles blaming lazy millenials for the sluggish housing market. And members here have been only too happy to play along. Well, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The older members here who are saying "b-b-but we're not all like that!" can dish it out but they can't take it.

So what are you complaining about?

So if I wasn't doing well, I'd be a whiny millennial making excuses for my lack of success in life. But since I am doing well, I have nothing to complain about? I reject the idea that I don't get to talk about this just because my personal circumstances are pretty good for the moment.

What I'm complaining about, specifically, is that at a time when money is being chiseled out of every other area of public expenditure in the name of fiscal responsibility and reducing the debt, the baby-boomers and seniors-- the very people who created that debt-- have the gall to ask for even more money.

-k

[kimmy]

And for those who are young and resent it, remember that the families of today are even smaller than the boomers. Who's going to take care of you when you're old and not able to take care of yourself?

Well it won't be the government, I'm certain of that much. I'll have to be 80 to qualify for cat-food coupons. There's going to be nothing left by the time people my age get there.

-k