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Posted

This seems like a separate incident to the overall crisis, so I started a new thread:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23795-malaysian-airliner-reportedly-shot-down-in-east-ukraine/

Edit: Or at least an escalation, in any case the new thread has started.

Posted

Endless Maidan...

If you would tell me a year ago that I will beat faces for buying a potbelly stove I would think you were of your trolley. And now after recent fight in the moll I'm happy that I've managed to get this infernal machine. Now there is a problem of keeping firewood in two-room flat with 5 pps living here. Moreover now they decided to start heating season in November in Chernigov and add extra school day in a week so that kids wouldn't have to go to school in winter! Last year we paid 600 hryvnia for heating. This year it is 1200. This is three times as much as our child allowance! And I've already received draft notice as well as my sister. You see this is our civil duty. And whose duty is feeding my baby son and wife and old parents I wonder? And they say that the authorities care about Ukrainians.

I guess this Ukrainian government cares about Ukrainians no more than all previous ones. And they would give eye teeth to clear this Maidan out their way and start robbing out of control our darling long suffering country. This new oligarch at power used fair people's fury for his own rise. Now he doesn't need in people's defenders anymore and sends them to die in fratricidal slaughter. Cannot imagine worse black ingratitude.

Posted

The future of Ukraine looks very bleak. The rebels will definitely be defeated, which is a good thing but at the same time only sows the seeds for another conflict in the future.

Partition would be the only way to avoid a future conflict but that is out of the question. After all, that is what the rebels want and they are going to lose this civil war. More importantly, though, partition is out of the question because most of the natural resources of Ukraine are located in East-Ukraine.

Posted

The future of Ukraine looks very bleak. The rebels will definitely be defeated, which is a good thing but at the same time only sows the seeds for another conflict in the future.

Partition would be the only way to avoid a future conflict but that is out of the question. After all, that is what the rebels want and they are going to lose this civil war. More importantly, though, partition is out of the question because most of the natural resources of Ukraine are located in East-Ukraine.

1. There is no civil war in Ukraine now. So called separatist have very little popular support. All fighting on the separatist side is being done by mostly Russian forces with support of local marginal elements.

2. Partition solves no problem. Separated territories will be used by Russia (Putin) for further expansion. People of Ukraine understand that. That is why most fighting from government side id being done by Russian-speaking Ukrainians from the Eastern regions.

Unfortunately, this conflict completely depends on Putin's will and thus has only a military solution. This is in fact a Ukraine's war for independence.

Posted

1. There is no civil war in Ukraine now. So called separatist have very little popular support. All fighting on the separatist side is being done by mostly Russian forces with support of local marginal elements.

Love to see some numbers to back that up.

According to extensive polling done by GfK, only 20% of people in Eastern and Southern Ukraine support the current government. Based on any accounts I can find, this is indeed a civil war of sorts.

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger

Posted (edited)

Love to see some numbers to back that up.

According to extensive polling done by GfK, only 20% of people in Eastern and Southern Ukraine support the current government. Based on any accounts I can find, this is indeed a civil war of sorts.

Russian-speaking internet is full of these numbers (and videos by the way).

Do you imply that 80% of "people in Eastern and Southern Ukraine" are fighting against the government forces?! Do you realize how many hundreds of thousand of soldiers should be in the "rebel army" then? Do you know the real number?

All the rest of accounts are garbage.

Could you name the commanders of the "rebel army"? Who are they?

Edited by ASIP
Posted

Russian-speaking internet is full of these numbers (and videos by the way).

Do you imply that 80% of "people in Eastern and Southern Ukraine" are fighting against the government forces?! Do you realize how many hundreds of thousand of soldiers should be in the "rebel army" then? Do you know the real number?

All the rest of accounts are garbage.

Could you name the commanders of the "rebel army"? Who are they?

Thats not a russian account its numbers from a German research firm Gfk thats been doing polling in Ukraine. There is clearly a large minority in Ukraine, that rejects the current government and how it came to power, and in some areas its a majority. YOUR accounts are garbage... completely unsubstantiated and unsupported by anything.

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger

Posted

Thats not a russian account its numbers from a German research firm Gfk thats been doing polling in Ukraine. There is clearly a large minority in Ukraine, that rejects the current government and how it came to power, and in some areas its a majority. YOUR accounts are garbage... completely unsubstantiated and unsupported by anything.

Don't confuse unhappiness with government with the desire to fight the government with arms. (Hint: look at Canada).

How do you define your "large minority"? Should it correlate with the number of soldiers in the "rebel army"? I think it should.

My accounts are correct because they are based on the first hand information. Contrary to yours...

My accounts are facts, not opinions. It's objective reality. Regardless that uninformed people think about it.

Posted

Don't confuse unhappiness with government with the desire to fight the government with arms. (Hint: look at Canada).

How do you define your "large minority"? Should it correlate with the number of soldiers in the "rebel army"? I think it should.

My accounts are correct because they are based on the first hand information. Contrary to yours...

My accounts are facts, not opinions. It's objective reality. Regardless that uninformed people think about it.

No your accounts are a type of logic fallacy known ad vericundium, where you attempt to position yourself is an expert, and declare your arguments valid based on nothing more than the fact YOU made them. Its also known as appeal to authority. Creditibility = Zero.

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger

Posted

No your accounts are a type of logic fallacy known ad vericundium, where you attempt to position yourself is an expert, and declare your arguments valid based on nothing more than the fact YOU made them. Its also known as appeal to authority. Creditibility = Zero.

There's also him being there, as opposed to you knowing nothing whatever that you didn't see on TV.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted

No your accounts are a type of logic fallacy known ad vericundium, where you attempt to position yourself is an expert, and declare your arguments valid based on nothing more than the fact YOU made them.

I make no facts. I find them in first hand information. Then I report them here for the people who have no knowledge of actual events.

Its also known as appeal to authority.

Correct. That is, generally, how teachers do in elementary school.

Creditibility = Zero.

Why should I worry how uninformed people accept facts? The facts won't change whether you consider my credibility low or high. It's your problem, not mine.

Please note, that you are discussing my personality and not responding to my questions to you. It seems to me, you are just speaking in slogans.

Let me remind my question again, how can you marry the facts that there are only about from one to five thousand soldiers in the "rebel army" and "a large minority" of Ukrainian population "reject the Ukrainian government"? These facts trash the assessment of the situation in Ukraine as a civil war.

This was my main objection to your point, which, it seems, you are unable to substantiate.

Posted

US satellite images show Russians firing artillery and rockets into Ukraine from Russia.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/27/satellite-images-prove-russia-fired-rockets-into-ukraine-after-mh17-crash-u-s-says/

Moreover, Russians seem to be playing more and more of a roll in the 'separatist' forces, otherwise known as the 'rabble' Russia has supported up until now. I think the time will come soon when it will be hard to deny this is not so much a separatist movement as a Russian invasion.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/28/russians-pushing-out-ukraines-separatist-rebels-as-leaders-of-self-proclaimed-republic-of-dnoetsk/

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted

Like the West's support of the Syrian rebels. Hard to deny it.

You're saying the West is firing rockets and missiles at Syria's government? The West has military advisers in charge of rebel groups?

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back that up?

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted (edited)

Yeah a whole other thread. It's in the Syria thread. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22485-syria-war/

I think you need to do better than a 43 pages of discussions. Where is the evidence that Western military advisers are in charge of rebel groups or firing on Syria's government?

Edited by Argus

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted

I think you need to do better than a 43 pages of discussions. Where is the evidence that Western military advisers are in charge of rebel groups or firing on Syria's government?

You made it through all 43 pages and the links that I provided? You sure?

Posted

You made it through all 43 pages and the links that I provided? You sure?

To be even more obvious, no, I'm not going to read through 43 pages of drek. If you have any actual evidence or cite you can repost it here.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted

To be even more obvious, no, I'm not going to read through 43 pages of drek. If you have any actual evidence or cite you can repost it here.

That's just lazy talk. You don't want to inform yourself. I get it.

Posted

That's just lazy talk. You don't want to inform yourself. I get it.

In other words, you have no evidence, which is pretty well what I expected.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted (edited)

In other words, you have no evidence, which is pretty well what I expected.

I gave you a whole thread of proof. Don't blame me for not presenting facts when you have no desire to check out what was posted.

But I will give you one link.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626304579509401865454762

The U.S. and Saudi Arabia have supplied Syrian rebel groups with a small number of advanced American antitank missiles for the first time in a pilot program that could lead to larger flows of sophisticated weaponry, people briefed on the effort said.

The new willingness to arm these rebels comes after the failure of U.S.-backed peace talks in January and recent regime gains on the battlefield. It also follows a reorganization of Western-backed fighters aimed at creating a more effective military force and increasing protection for Christian and other religious minorities—something of particular importance to Washington.

This shift is seen as a test of whether the U.S. can find a trustworthy rebel partner able to keep sophisticated weapons out of the hands of extremists, Saudi and Syrian opposition figures said. The U.S. has long feared that if it does supply advanced arms, the weapons will wind up with radical groups—some tied to al Qaeda—which have set up bases in opposition-held territory.

The White House would neither confirm nor deny it had provided the TOW armor-piercing antitank systems, the first significant supply of sophisticated U.S. weapons systems to rebels. But U.S. officials did say they are working to bolster the rebels' ability to fight the regime.

Lazy.

Edited by GostHacked
Posted

What a co-incidence that the Brits are reopening investigations into the Litvinenko-murder. I guess they must have suddenly discovered new evidence.

Posted

I gave you a whole thread of proof. Don't blame me for not presenting facts when you have no desire to check out what was posted.

But I will give you one link.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626304579509401865454762

All the link said was the US had supplied a small number of anti-tank weapons to Syrian rebels. This is not information related to my request. To reiterate my question:

You're saying the West is firing rockets and missiles at Syria's government? The West has military advisers in charge of rebel groups?

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back that up

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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