Ukraine crisis

[monty16]

I think it has always been thus.

I remember watching that old TVO panel discussion as part of Studio Two, made up of Janet Stein, Peter Gwynn and Eric Margolis when the Canadian involvement in Afghanistan was just beginning. Janet and Peter generally followed the American spin but Margolis would go his own route stating his opinion. The other panelists and moderator would squirm as Eric would spout his anti involvement views, activities on the ground and warnings of the catastrophe to come. Eric was the only one with intimate knowledge of the Middle East and had actually met and interviewed Osama.

Unfortunately, his minority opinion was so contrary to all the other things we were hearing from Afghanistan and Iraq that he was often dismissed as “quirky” and pro-Taliban by many. Eventually he was elbowed out as viewers were very uncomfortable with his views especially after the body bags started coming home.

Eric was absolutely correct in his analysis and warnings.

His 2008 book, “American Raj – Liberation or Domination” was criticized at the time but is now accepted by many as the most comprehensive explanation of Middle East values, culture and driving forces.

I have been very sceptical of Western media coverage since that time. Just because most media outlets sell the same story does not mean that it is true.

Ahhhhh, excellent post and it brings back fond memories. I think that Eric Margolis was one of the very last talking heads to ever give the other POV. I haven't heard of him in years and he may even be dead? If he's not then they surely have put the screws to him and his opinions. In fact, I corresponded with him back then and asked questions of him that I felt weren't adequately covered in the mainstream news. He was always receptive to any questions.

But sadly, you're right about him not being listened to back then. People like Janis stein (gag me) seem to have stayed very popular and we even see her on CBC lately, spilling her guts mainly for the Israeli cause and trying to make it appear as something else.

Freedom to speak on the media and voice a different view is my schtick. There's no good reason why we shouldn't be hearing both sides and it's most likely the wishes of the controlling interests of the media sources that prevent it. As a sidenote, notice how Neil MacDonald has been pretty well isolated away from the controversial stuff? You probably know that he was the Israeli correspondent for CBC for years and he started to tell the truth just the way he was seeing it. Sad really.

[ASIP]

I do not disagree. This referendum took place without outside supervision and the validity depends on which side of the issue one is on. A referendum must be considered valid by all sides for it to be an acceptable reflection of local views.

Just how "valid" is the May 25th election going to be? How are the wishes of those in the Crimea going to be evaluated - or is Crimea no longer being contested. How are the wishes of those in the East and South where bullets are flying going to be evaluated?

That is what I alluded to earlier. Crimea is now part of Russia - full stop. There are oblasts in which a large percentage of people do not trust what is happening in Kiev and want no part of that election.

The presidential election will be completely valid. I.e., it is being held (it's a long process) in accordance to a respective law. International observers will be present. An indication will be recognition of the results by the UN.

Ukrainian citizens living in Crimea can vote in neighboring oblasts of Ukraine. Elections in the two troubled oblasts will be partially disrupted, but the important fact is that Ukraine creates all conditions for voting there. Disruptions will not be critical. In the other 22 oblast it will be business as usual. Of course, Russia will do some provocations, but, again they won't be critical.

The biggest problem, for Ukraine is the number of candidates - about 20 (including representing East and South). This means that it is possible that nobody can get 50% and the second round may be required. Period of uncertainty may last longer time.

I believe that the new Ukraine will include a partitioned area where there is a buffer between the Russian Crimea and the pro-Kiev North.

You are pretty far from the real situation. No "buffer" is required or anticipated. Just a solid border is necessary.

Edited May 14, 2014 by ASIP

[Big Guy]

...

You are pretty far from the real situation. No "buffer" is required or anticipated. Just a solid border is necessary.

Thank you for your comments - again. You appear to have some insights which are not available to others and I appreciate you sharing them. When I post I am not stating what I want to happen but what I think will happen based on the limited information that is available to me. You may be right or I may be right. Time will tell. I trust that we are both better informed from the experience of sharing our views.

Again - please continue to share your opinions here. I find them informative.

[monty16]

Thank you for your comments - again. You appear to have some insights which are not available to others and I appreciate you sharing them. When I post I am not stating what I want to happen but what I think will happen based on the limited information that is available to me. You may be right or I may be right. Time will tell. I trust that we are both better informed from the experience of sharing our views.

Again - please continue to share your opinions here. I find them informative.

Propagandists make it their business to appear well informed. Always be cautious of what you accept for the truth and always consider that you are being shielded from one side of the story because you can't be trusted to form the right opinion.

It's nearly as easy as leading lemmings over a cliff but with people there are always a few who decide to not jump and instead cause trouble. Don't be one of them!

[Rue]

Eric Margolis was an editorialist not a journalist.

He expressed unsubstantiated opinions. That is what editorialists do.

Journalists in theory are not supposed to have opinions. They are supposed to simply report what they see.

The problem is we do not have pure journalism anymore. When the stories come back,the editors cut and censor them to conform to their preconceived political biases and thenf urther inject politically bias words in the soun dbites they then feed the journalists to speak and of course alter the footage to censor out those things that do not fit their agenda.

You only need to look at say the difference between how CTV and CBC present the same story to see that.

If some of you like Eric Margolis it reflects the fact that he used to express subjective unsubstantiated opinions you would agree with.

The fact is he presented numerous allegations about Western government intelligence agencies with zero proofand got caught one too many times unable to backup what he said and he lost credibility.

Editorialists stake out a zone of opinion and monopolize it and cater to those who want to hear that opinion area.

Editorialists or propogandists have a political agenda they advance and they cut and tailor events to suit their opinions.

They see only that which conforms to their pre-existing opinions and skip the rest.

Now to refer back to what Ghost said, the media and such editorialists do not coerce anyone.

You have free thought. No one stops you from looking at all sides of a story-only you do.

We all have the opportunity to try expand and challenge ourselves to see more than one side of a argument.

Whether we choose to or not comes down to our free choice. No one forces us to read or listen to anything.

I live in Canada. I am not coerced. I thank God I live in Canada and not North Korea.

Let's get some perspective. We are not being controlled as they are in North Korea. To call us coerced by our media is

unfair. No one stops any of us from disagreeing with anyone or forces you to believe anything.

I am tempted though to force all of you to put a Habs sweater on today and show support for God's team.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Rue

[Argus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNN_controversies

Nothing in your cite contradicted what I said. Most of it was completely irrelevent.

[Argus]

The problem with US news and to some extent Canadian news as well is that they never have anyone telling the other side of the story.

What 'other side'?

First of all you make the assumption that western news agencies have a natural 'side'. Oh wait, let me guess, they all take their orders from some secret government agency? I'm sure that's what ghosthacked thinks.

But we have no skin in the game in most stories. If the media takes a 'side' it is becaue, having looked at what's going on, they believe that's the right side. Do you think we're all being unfair to Boko Haram and that we need to get people on the news defending their actions and behavior, giving them equal time with any criticism? The idea is silly, just as it's silly to give a bunch of Russian thugs, many of them working for Putin, equal time to swager and bray and pretend what they're doing has the slightest democratic value to it.

And by the way, given Russia is not a democratic state, why would you even go through the silly motion of having a democratic vote given that once incorporated into Russia you would lose all democratic rights and all human rights?

Edited May 14, 2014 by Argus

[monty16]

What 'other side'?

First of all you make the assumption that western news agencies have a natural 'side'. Oh wait, let me guess, they all take their orders from some secret government agency? I'm sure that's what ghosthacked thinks.

But we have no skin in the game in most stories. If the media takes a 'side' it is becaue, having looked at what's going on, they believe that's the right side. Do you think we're all being unfair to Boko Haram and that we need to get people on the news defending their actions and behavior, giving them equal time with any criticism? The idea is silly, just as it's silly to give a bunch of Russian thugs, many of them working for Putin, equal time to swager and bray and pretend what they're doing has the slightest democratic value to it.

And by the way, given Russia is not a democratic state, why would you even go through the silly motion of having a democratic vote given that once incorporated into Russia you would lose all democratic rights and all human rights?

I think that people need to get both sides of a story. If the Russian side had been heard we may have been able to prevent the US war on Iraq that slaughtered hundreds of thousands of INNOCENTS. Not to mention all the other wars of aggression that the US has waged since the fall of the Soviet Union.

As we were discussing earlier, Eric Margolis would be invited onto CBC to tell the other side back during the phony Kosovo war of Clinton's making. His comments could have been somewhat responsible for minimizing the US/Nato bombing of the people from 30,000'. In any case, Margolis did ask the question on the hyped up lies of ethnic Albanian mass graves and so it was investigated. Everybody now knows it was just a pack of US lies to justify war.

More Eric Margolis' couldn't hurt, I'm sure you will agree. Preventing war is always better than going to war. And just look at how the war with Syria has been avoided by Putin's input with Obama's. The US could be in Syria right now dropping bombs on the good guys? Along with Putin's assistance and the American people being stung too many times by the propagandists, war was avoided.

And of course, as we discussed earlier, the main reason why another opinion is not allowed to be expressed on the mainstream media is because of the rabidity of the network owners. In CBC's case, the Harper government exercising it's pro-US control over the CBC. Bad government poisons the media eventually.

[monty16]

http://rt.com/news/158832-un-ukraine-helicopter-scandal/

Now the Kiev government has the UN down it's neck. This leaves us with the most obvious question once again. Who are the good guys? The UN or the terrorist upstart Kiev government?

Thank dog for RT news telling the story because you probably won't get it anywehere else!

[monty16]

For example, here's the other side of the story on what's caused the problems in Ukraine:

http://rt.com/news/158908-lavrov-russia-ukraine-nato/

Now does that hurt anybody to at least see the other side? Is there a grain of truth in this story that hasn't been told?

Some things are becoming painfully obvious as this situation sits stalemated waiting for the vote to take place. Russia is not invading the Ukraine but is seen to be taking the high road. The world is watching even though the story is being shielded from the eyes of Canadians. And of course, Americans lack the ability to even comprehend something other than the propaganda that's being spoonfed to them.

[Wayward Son]

Russia is not invading the Ukraine but is seen to be taking the high road.

Only to the hopelessly delusional.

[Argus]

http://rt.com/news/158832-un-ukraine-helicopter-scandal/

Now the Kiev government has the UN down it's neck. This leaves us with the most obvious question once again. Who are the good guys? The UN or the terrorist upstart Kiev government?

Thank dog for RT news telling the story because you probably won't get it anywehere else!

Yes, thank 'dog' for RT, the champions of truth, justice, freedom and democracy.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Only to the hopelessly delusional.

Or trolls...

[eyeball]

There is no high road - just a muddy badly marked trail that leads to a swamp.

[ASIP]

Again - please continue to share your opinions here. I find them informative.

Life for English speaking observers is getting easier.

Today I found this site:

http://inforesist.org/?lang=en

I never read them before, but their main correspondent, Mr. Tymchuk, is, probably, the best informed journalist in that part of Ukraine.

No guaranty that all information is 100% correct, but, nevertheless, this is best what is available.

[Army Guy]

As we were discussing earlier, Eric Margolis would be invited onto CBC to tell the other side back during the phony Kosovo war of Clinton's making. His comments could have been somewhat responsible for minimizing the US/Nato bombing of the people from 30,000'. In any case, Margolis did ask the question on the hyped up lies of ethnic Albanian mass graves and so it was investigated. Everybody now knows it was just a pack of US lies to justify war.

More Eric Margolis' couldn't hurt, I'm sure you will agree. Preventing war is always better than going to war. And just look at how the war with Syria has been avoided by Putin's input with Obama's. The US could be in Syria right now dropping bombs on the good guys? Along with Putin's assistance and the American people being stung too many times by the propagandists, war was avoided.

Dispite all the other evidence that has come out from both sides, your saying that the Kosovo war was phoney.....Are you impling Clinton needed to scratch an ich and drop some bombs to make him presidential. because that is what i get from your post .....I've got to ask are you serbian?, where you there? or are you have you read some book or paper about it....I don't care what Eric Margolis says or claims....Mass grave sites were found and documented by the Candian military, RCMP, and forensic personal from Canada....Infact grave sites were found by other nations as well, all equiped with serveral agencies as ours....

How do i know, well sir i was there as part of the security team....that spent weeks at serveral sites while the experts uncovered your so call phoney war....I will say not every site contained kosovians some were serbs killed by the KLA, but there was mass graves the largest the Canadian contigent found contained 30 plus bodies....

I'm sure you can find those reports on goggle some where....

But the bombings had to do with more than just mass graves, it was designed to stop that conflict of ethic cleansing ...infact just before the bombings started the serbs were involved in a massive offensive to clean out the KLA, and to continue thier cleansing program.....NATO did not want to get into a ground campaign, as the first troops in were already deployed from Bosina.....it was there that the serbs perfected their cleansing practices....they knew exactly how to hide the carnage....to say it did not happen is to dishonor those men, women , children that died in that brutal period.

http://www.gendercide.org/case_kosovo.html

http://www.nato.int/kosovo/history.htm

[Rue]

ASIP you will notice there are many authorities on this forum about countries they have never visited. There is this phenomena in Canada that we seem to have where people think they can pass judgement based on what they want to read on the internet without ever leaving their Mama's basement.

Welcome to Canada.

[GostHacked]

http://tarpley.net/ukrainian-state-heads-for-breakup-despite-us-hysterics-putins-actions-promise-a-more-stable-balance-of-power-system/

The initiative in starting the current crisis did not come from Putin, but rather from a complex of US and NATO institutions dedicated to meddling in the internal affairs of other countries, and to destabilizing other states in ways that the bungling Utopians of the State Department imagine will be helpful to them.

The forces behind the mob-rule destabilization of Ukraine in the fall of 2013 and the Kiev putsch of February 22, 2014 are centered in the National Endowment for Democracy, and in the politicized subdivisions of the US Agency for International Development, not to mention such private sector conduits as Freedom House, the Albert Einstein Foundation, and many more.

These are the agencies which, according to US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland (the wife of neocon warmonger and top Romney advisor Robert Kagan), have invested some $5 billion in building up an anti-Russian opposition in Ukraine – an opposition in which neofascist and neo-Nazi political forces are heavily represented.

One of the best people to listen to in these cases. Names the names and the connections and the details. Unlike most news agencies.

[Smallc]

That's right it's everybody but Putin.

[GostHacked]

That's right it's everybody but Putin.

Read his articles, he has no love for Putin either, as he is part of the problem here. The difference is that most media simply can't, and won't, get into the details of the players and their names like Tarpley does.

Edited May 15, 2014 by GostHacked

[ASIP]

http://tarpley.net/ukrainian-state-heads-for-breakup-despite-us-hysterics-putins-actions-promise-a-more-stable-balance-of-power-system/

One of the best people to listen to in these cases. Names the names and the connections and the details. Unlike most news agencies.

Sorry, this mental exercise can be respected for the number of letters the author typed, but it has little to do to the background of the current situation in Ukraine. My exclusively personal opinion is that the author lives in alternate reality.

Read his articles, he has no love for Putin either, as he is part of the problem here. The difference is that most media simply can't, and won't, get into the details of the players and their names like Tarpley does.

It is not a big deal to list names. There are no relevant facts in this article. There are lots of wrong statements.

P.S. I've just looked at tweets on the left hand side. The author is a typical leftist. Garbage in - garbage out.

Edited May 16, 2014 by ASIP

[Wayward Son]

http://tarpley.net/ukrainian-state-heads-for-breakup-despite-us-hysterics-putins-actions-promise-a-more-stable-balance-of-power-system/

One of the best people to listen to in these cases. Names the names and the connections and the details. Unlike most news agencies.

Good point. When a major issue hits the news, I feel that is best to avoid the people who hold expertise in the area (Timothy Snyder would one example when it comes to Ukraine), and instead turn to uber-conspiracy nuts like Tarpley: a 9/11 troofer and someone who despite zero scientific training "knows" that climate change is a fraud. Tarpley, like anyone else, is obviously not wrong about everything, but it is a complex world out there, and when someone has an opinion about everything then chances are their opinion is not worth anything. It wouldn't be a problem if Tarpley was giving his opinions on internet forums like those of us here, but there are actually people who listen to his opinions and take them seriously.

[Big Guy]

There have been reports of pro-Kiev paramilitary operatives getting involved in the battles. They do not trust the current Ukraine military because of the number of soldiers from the East and South. I do not think their actions are going to increase outside support for the pro-Kiev side in these conflicts.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Kiev-lets-loose-Men-in-Bla-by-Lionel-Reynolds-Army_Far-right_Paramilitary_Police-140512-546.html?show=votes

[Wayward Son]

P.S. I've just looked at tweets on the left hand side. The author is a typical leftist. Garbage in - garbage out.

Tarpley is no more a typical leftist than Alex Jones is a typical right-winger. Both of them exist on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but are joined together by a complete disconnection from reality, and complete lack of critical thinking skills when it comes to conspiracy claims.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Wayward Son

[ASIP]

There have been reports of pro-Kiev paramilitary operatives getting involved in the battles. They do not trust the current Ukraine military because of the number of soldiers from the East and South. I do not think their actions are going to increase outside support for the pro-Kiev side in these conflicts.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Kiev-lets-loose-Men-in-Bla-by-Lionel-Reynolds-Army_Far-right_Paramilitary_Police-140512-546.html?show=votes

Yes, there is such a phenomenon there right now. However, the reason is not in the East/West division, but rather government forces are strictly limited in their modus operandi or ROE, while separatists use all variety of terrorist actions. Appearance of the pro-government paramilitary units is a popular reaction on inability of the government police forces to fight separatists. The government is not encouraging creation of these groups, however, is not precluding it.

The incident described in your link was discussed in Ukrainian forums. No certain conclusions about the unit were made.