Ukraine crisis

[GostHacked]

I'm not convinced that the information that we're getting from Russian media is very impartial, or all that reliable. Are they allowed a free press over there?

Do you have a link to that?

That information was put into one of the Syrian threads. But with the Internet at their fingertips....

[Argus]

I read somewhere that Putin was getting fed up with Saudi royal family and was ready to launch a missile strike against them much like what happened between NATO and Libya if the US was going to hit Syria. That's why everyone backed off so quick!

And which interenet conspiracy site did you read that nonsense on?

As far as sanctions go, Putin wants to sanction a lot of the Russian billionaires who are exporting the wealth and not recirculating wealth in Russia. So the G7 sanctions are helping Russia!

If Putin wants to reign in any Russian billionaires (not counting himself, as he is the wealthiest man in Russia) he will simply tell them what to do. Russia is not a land of laws. Whatever Putin says goes. If a billionaire refuses, he will find himself in prison and his assets stolen just like Khodorkovsky did.

[GostHacked]

That's a ludicrous comparison. You don't get shot if you put a story critical of the government on ABC, and God knows you'll see lots of stories critical of the government and of Obama in all American media.

You will find nothing like that on RT, Pravda or any other major Russian media. They are all owned or controlled in one way or another by the Russian government and its allies. RT makes FOX look unbiased. It is flat out Stalin era propaganda.

Not everyone on RT is pro Russian.

But it is American media will generally be pro American, and Russian sources will be mostly pro Russian. It does not take a braniac to figure this one out.

The US media has really tried to sideline this Russian/Ukraine story in the past weeks via the MH370 plane crash. So an attempt to marginalize those actions by not reporting them.

[WWWTT]

Can you cite the last time it was done?

And do you believe Russia intends to set up a democracy in its newly acquired territory when it disdains all democratic values?

When I have time I can do a search. Iran 1953, and recently Syria.

But perhaps the methods vary.

Another one is Afghanistan during the 80's.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

And which interenet conspiracy site did you read that nonsense on?

If Putin wants to reign in any Russian billionaires (not counting himself, as he is the wealthiest man in Russia) he will simply tell them what to do. Russia is not a land of laws. Whatever Putin says goes. If a billionaire refuses, he will find himself in prison and his assets stolen just like Khodorkovsky did.

Conspiracy or not, I still can't recall the threatened air strikes happening on Syria, can you?

As far as Russia goes, don't see anything yet as far as helping the Ukraines out more concrete than some words and miniscule sanctions.

Like I said before, I'm sure Putin is having sleepless nights, pacing back and forth worrying about the G8 status.

WWWTT

[GostHacked]

Conspiracy or not, I still can't recall the threatened air strikes happening on Syria, can you?

WWWTT

Yep.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23830590

The UK and the US have threatened a "serious response" if it emerges Syria used chemical weapons last week.

Prime Minister David Cameron and President Barack Obama spoke on the telephone for 40 minutes on Saturday.

Both were "gravely concerned" by the "increasing signs that this was a[n]... attack carried out by the Syrian regime", Mr Cameron's office said.

But intervention would have serious consequences and the US case was weak, the Syrian information minister warned.

In an interview with Lebanese TV, Omran Zoabi said: "If the US leads a military intervention, this will have dangerous consequences. It will bring chaos and the region will burn."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2013/aug/31/syria-us-air-strikes-protests-in-pictures

The airstrikes were never carried out by the USA. However Israel has done airstrikes within Syria over the past couple years.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-iran-threaten-israel-over-air-strike/

Syria threatened Thursday to retaliate for an Israeli air strike and its ally Iran said there will be repercussions for the Jewish state over the attack.

U.S. officials have said Israel launched a rare air strike inside Syria on Wednesday, targeting a convoy believed to be carrying anti-aircraft weapons bound for Hezbollah, the powerful Lebanese militant group allied with Syria and Iran.

Syria and Hezbollah, however, say the Israeli strike hit a research center about seven miles north of Damascus. Israel has not confirmed the strike.

Searching the Internet is hard work guys.

[Big Guy]

Why do I translate this as "the more wierdo conspiracy sites I check out..." ?

I have read some of your other posts and do understand your point of view and what process you use to make your assumptions and "translations". You are obviously passionate about your sources and surrogates. I assume that you are not on the ground in the Eastern part of the Ukraine and are getting your information from sites that parallel your views and making decisions accordingly. As to the other matters, the truth of the Afghanistan fiasco is just beginning to be revealed. In ten years we may get to the truth of what really happened - just like in Vietnam, Korea, Somalia and starting in Iraq. The results of the Libyan excursion are also just starting to come in and we should soon know who our government thinks are the good guys in Syria at this time.

You have a right to your opinion and I respect your right to express it. I disagree with it but would never make light of something someone truly believes in. Thank you for reading my views.

[WWWTT]

Yep.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23830590

http://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2013/aug/31/syria-us-air-strikes-protests-in-pictures

The airstrikes were never carried out by the USA. However Israel has done airstrikes within Syria over the past couple years.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-iran-threaten-israel-over-air-strike/

Searching the Internet is hard work guys.

Your drifting like crazy here man.

Haven't seen the US do anything yet with the Ukraine.

Israel will do whatever it wants with it's neighbours. I suspect the Israeli's give a rat's ass about who's in power, as long as it serves their interest. In fact, when their enemies are fighting amongst themselves in a civil war, all the better!

WWWTT

[GostHacked]

Your drifting like crazy here man.

Not at all. My first couple links show that the US threatened military action and was prepared to do airstrikes within Syria. Something you did not recall, so I linked a couple articles that showed exactly that.

Haven't seen the US do anything yet with the Ukraine.

That was not really the question you posed. Sure nothing has happened in Ukraine with regards to NATO. If they went toe to toe with the Russians there, then you will see a lot of blood. NATO is not going to get it's nose bloody just for the sake of Ukraine. That would have happened already.

Israel will do whatever it wants with it's neighbours. I suspect the Israeli's give a rat's ass about who's in power, as long as it serves their interest. In fact, when their enemies are fighting amongst themselves in a civil war, all the better!

WWWTT

It's an act of war. Bombing these guys is not going to help with Israel's overall security. And for this I do not want to hear anyone complain when Israel is attacked in a similar manner by entities that 'will do what they want'.

[Big Guy]

If it is true that about 28% of the population in the Ukraine have declared themselves as ethnic Russians in the last census and 46% of households (in another survey from Kiev) say that Russian is the predominant language in the home (about the same number who say that Ukrainian is the predominant language in the home) then I had wondered about the makeup of the Ukrainian military and how much the government could depend on it if indeed a "civil war" would break out. This is from CNN:

"In Donetsk, six armored vehicles sent into the nearby city of Kramatorsk in the morning later showed up carrying Russian flags in Slaviansk.

Russian Ambassador to the EU Vladimir Chizhov told CNN's Christiane Amanpour those Ukrainian soldiers "preferred to switch sides and join the people." Ukraine's Defense Ministry said the vehicles had been seized by militants.

In Slaviansk, north of Kramatorsk and about 100 miles from the border with Russia, pro-Russian militants now appear to be firmly in control of the town, according to CNN's Nick Paton Walsh on the ground."

Is this another example of he said, he said or is there some truth in questioning the true allegiance of the Russian speaking soldiers in the Ukrainian military?

An interesting video from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/16/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_bn2

Edited April 17, 2014 by Big Guy

[WWWTT]

Not at all. My first couple links show that the US threatened military action and was prepared to do airstrikes within Syria. Something you did not recall, so I linked a couple articles that showed exactly that.

That was not really the question you posed. Sure nothing has happened in Ukraine with regards to NATO. If they went toe to toe with the Russians there, then you will see a lot of blood. NATO is not going to get it's nose bloody just for the sake of Ukraine. That would have happened already.

It's an act of war. Bombing these guys is not going to help with Israel's overall security. And for this I do not want to hear anyone complain when Israel is attacked in a similar manner by entities that 'will do what they want'.

Maybe I was being sarcastic or something like that for the first comment here. I'm fully aware of the US threat to Syria after the alleged gas chemical weapons incident. But the NATO countries back tracked real fast on that one hey.

I personally don't think NATO cares about Russia and the Ukraine. Other than any opportunity that western leaders may use to score political points back at home.

After all, the Ukraine is bankrupt! I don't think people are really going to flock to a bankrupt nation with nothing to offer.

WWWTT

[Big Guy]

Looks like there is a buck to be made in Ukraine. It appears that a Ukrainian billionaire has decided to put a bounty on the pro-Russian people in the East. The following is from to-days KyivPost;

"Anyone who furthermore arrests a Kremlin-backed saboteur and passes him to the National Resistance Headquarters in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast will receive $10,000. Freeing any government building will lead to a $200,000 reward, disarming separatists of their weapons could to allow earn an additional $1,000-2,000, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Administration press officer Kateryna Shovkova told the Kyiv Post.

Moreover, Svoboda Party activist Oleksandr Aronets has published a photo of the Privatbank banner, which says: “$10,000 for a moskal (slang term for “Russian”). A profitable offer from Privatbank.” Kolomoisky owns Privatbank along with another billionaire businessman, Gennadiy Bogolyubov.

Kolomoisky has previously offered especially sharp criticism on Russian President Vladimir Putin. “Short-sized schizophrenic. He is absolutely inadequate, wholly insane. His messiahship, reviving the Russian Empire of 1913 or the USSR may push the world to a catastrophe,” the Dnipropetrovsk governor said about Putin during one of his first public appearances while in office on March 3."

Who says money can't win a war?

[Shady]

He's pretty much dead on about Putin.

[Argus]

Not everyone on RT is pro Russian.

What does that even mean? Every story I've ever seen on RT puts is pro Russia and anti-America.

But it is American media will generally be pro American, and Russian sources will be mostly pro Russian. It does not take a braniac to figure this one out.

There is a HUGE difference between being generally "pro-American" and having your stories designed and vetted for political content by the government. RT is not merely pro-Russia, it is pro whatever the Russian government wants it to be. It is a government propaganda organ in the same style as Soviet media were. There is no difference.

The US media has really tried to sideline this Russian/Ukraine story in the past weeks via the MH370 plane crash. So an attempt to marginalize those actions by not reporting them.

That's conspiracy drivel. The US media doesn't have a single originating control. They cover whatever they think the people want to see and will give them higher ratings.

[Argus]

I have read some of your other posts and do understand your point of view and what process you use to make your assumptions and "translations". You are obviously passionate about your sources and surrogates. I assume that you are not on the ground in the Eastern part of the Ukraine and are getting your information from sites that parallel your views and making decisions accordingly.

You mean do I trust the BBC over Al's Illuminaty Conspiracy Page? Yep, I do. I'm not particularly passionate about it, though. I simply accept the major news media has better sources and methodolgies for collecting information, and is less likely to be operated by nutbars and screwballs than a lot of other internet sites

As to the other matters, the truth of the Afghanistan fiasco is just beginning to be revealed.

In other words, you got nothing.

You have a right to your opinion and I respect your right to express it. I disagree with it but would never make light of something someone truly believes in. Thank you for reading my views.

But I'm a judgemental sort of guy. I judge what you write based on the likelihood of it's being remotely simillar to truth, and on a fair degree of knowledge about how the world operates. It does not appear you have that interest or ability to assess information or much knowledge about how the world operates, thus making it impossible for me to respect your stated opinion.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Argus

[WWWTT]

That's conspiracy drivel. The US media doesn't have a single originating control. They cover whatever they think the people want to see and will give them higher ratings.

Not really true.

That missing flight brings in a lot of ratings because most people traveled by plane at some point in time in their life or will be doing so again. So lots of people can relate to it. Also, CNN can cover the story in so many different ways, dressing it up and culturing the story to sell more viewers.

Not so easy to do with the Ukraine story, where a long time enemy of the US is winning at almost every turn. Watching your enemy win the game doesn't bring in ratings. There isn't a lipstick in the world that the media can dress up the Ukraine story with to snuggle up with their viewers! Better to just focus on what sells and drop the bad news!

WWWTT

[Argus]

Not really true.

That missing flight brings in a lot of ratings because most people traveled by plane at some point in time in their life or will be doing so again. So lots of people can relate to it. Also, CNN can cover the story in so many different ways, dressing it up and culturing the story to sell more viewers.

Not so easy to do with the Ukraine story, where a long time enemy of the US is winning at almost every turn. Watching your enemy win the game doesn't bring in ratings. There isn't a lipstick in the world that the media can dress up the Ukraine story with to snuggle up with their viewers! Better to just focus on what sells and drop the bad news!

WWWTT

You say its not really true, then go on to agree with me anyway...

[Boges]

So people have said that comparing what Putin is doing to what Hitler did in the 30's is crazy.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/17/world/ukraine-religious-threats/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

(CNN) -- Jews in one Ukrainian city were were sent notes "indicating that they have to identify themselves as Jews," U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said Thursday.

"In the year 2014, after all of the miles traveled and all of the journey of history, this is not just intolerable, it's grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable. And any of the people who engage in these kinds of activities -- from whatever party or whatever ideology or whatever place they crawl out of -- there is no place for that."

All parties at international talks on the Ukraine crisis Thursday unanimously condemned anti-Semitism and other forms of religious intolerance, Kerry said.

Now I'm not so sure, if it's that offside.

[Topaz]

I saw at noon on a Toronto news site, that Canada is sending or has sent 6 jet fighter over to Ukraine. So does this mean NATO is getting involved in a civic war? Harper loves wars so much why does he join the military?

[GostHacked]

What does that even mean? Every story I've ever seen on RT puts is pro Russia and anti-America.

That might be the case for the printed version, but they have a bunch of reporters and shows that really do not paint Putin in a good light. But it has the same spin for Russia as western media has for the USA.

There is a HUGE difference between being generally "pro-American" and having your stories designed and vetted for political content by the government. RT is not merely pro-Russia, it is pro whatever the Russian government wants it to be. It is a government propaganda organ in the same style as Soviet media were. There is no difference.

The propaganda works here as well. It's just called 'Public Relations' over in these parts.

That's conspiracy drivel. The US media doesn't have a single originating control. They cover whatever they think the people want to see and will give them higher ratings.

Then they are not news agencies. They are entertainment units. If they give you what you want to hear, but you do not get a solution, then what is the point? So I don't think one should expect any real investigative journalism to uncover the real facts with the main stream media.

[bush_cheney2004]

I saw at noon on a Toronto news site, that Canada is sending or has sent 6 jet fighter over to Ukraine. So does this mean NATO is getting involved in a civic war? Harper loves wars so much why does he join the military?

The squadron is going to Belgium or Poland, not Ukraine. More warmongering from Canada, eh ?

Edited April 17, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Big Guy]

. It does not appear you have that interest or ability to assess information or much knowledge about how the world operates, thus making it impossible for me to respect your stated opinion.

A very courageous and unique point of view. It appears that you are very comfortable with your view of the world. Good for you. I will take your comments and opinion of my opinion in the spirit and sensitivity of your intent and give it the appropriate consideration. Now on with the topic at hand.

[bleeding heart]

The RT aside, propaganda in places like Russia tends to be a lot more crude. So in fact, a strong argument can (and has been) made that Western propaganda is a lot more effective. In large part because there is some debate--even heated debate--but it usually falls within strict parameters of "acceptable discourse," whereas the harsher facts are relegated to the margins...and often ignored altogether.

So it's true that we occasionally have outright, Soviet-style propaganda--the Jessica Lynch story, for example; or the "Independent analysts"--Retired generals given talking points straight from the Pentagon--selling the Iraq war.

But that is not usually the case. Our propaganda is more insidious...in large part because it is believed by the sincere and professional journalists who are its purveyors.

So, for example, when the NYTimes decides that it's not going to call waterboarding "torture" anymore...this coincided, unsurprisingly, with revelations of the US committing the act. The Times had long referred to waterboarding as "torture" but changed its editorial policy in collusion with the performance of the US government.

That's propaganda, explicitly so....and probably very few Times journalists even comprehended the fact. They weren't being dishonest. They were feeding the public doctrinal "truths" that they themselves had fully internalized.

That's why they could report on the atrocities of Pol Pot, arguably even with some accuracy and probably with strong and intrepid reporting....while ignoring the simultaneous mass terror and murder occurring under Suharto....whose horror chamber was aided by Western arms and diplomatic shenanigans, primarily from the US and UK.

That's propaganda.

And I bet the Soviets were a little jealous of its efficacy.

I don't mean to single out the Times; you'll find the same thing with the Globe and Mail, National Post, CBC, BBC....all of them, though admittedly with an occasional, actually journalistic flourish. But the near-uniformity and unanimity is pretty sad, and sometimes startling.

[Shady]

Perhaps you guys should start a new thread on media propaganda. This is suppose to be about Putin's invasion and annexation of Crimea, and his subsequent actions in eastern Ukraine. Unless of course you're denying the events.

[WWWTT]

You say its not really true, then go on to agree with me anyway...

Yes I kind of agree with you, but I wanted to add a little more to it. That's all.

WWWTT