On Guard for Thee Posted March 15, 2014 Report Posted March 15, 2014 First of all Id like a cite for that. Next... you still didnt answer the question. Do you believe Crimeans should have a right to decide their own future or not? You DONT. This is just a sporting event for you. I have to agree with Argus on this one. Various news outlets have claimed that the ballot asks only those 2 questions that were cited. Where is the "I want to stay in the Ukeraine" option? That added to the fact there are a few thousand Russian troops on the streets. Can you spell "intimidation"? Quote
Big Guy Posted March 15, 2014 Report Posted March 15, 2014 According to the Toronto Star – Sat Mar 15: Two questions are being asked of voters. The first is “do you support reuniting Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?” The second which refers to the region's relationship with Kyiv, is “do you support restoring the Crimean Republic's 1992 Constitution and status within Ukraine?” Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
ASIP Posted March 15, 2014 Report Posted March 15, 2014 According to the Toronto Star – Sat Mar 15: Two questions are being asked of voters. The first is “do you support reuniting Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?” The second which refers to the region's relationship with Kyiv, is “do you support restoring the Crimean Republic's 1992 Constitution and status within Ukraine?” The second question is far from the status quo. It means the Crimea is an independent state and has yet to negotiate any treaties on its relation with Ukraine. "Within Ukraine" is the fig leaf for ignorant people to pretend that voters have a choice. Quote
Louiss Posted March 26, 2014 Report Posted March 26, 2014 Is anyone optimistic for Ukraine's economic prospects? According to this, http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/kerry_urges_ukraine_reforms_in_call_to_russian_foreign_minister_20140316#comment-1294498663 , Ukraine's economy will face harder times after Yatsenyuk will introduce a new national currency. I even doubt that loans will help... Quote
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Posted March 28, 2014 Funny how a simple missing plane can shift the whole focus from the situation in Ukraine (and other ongoing tensions in the Middle East) and the Russian annexation of Crimea. We have a possible build up of Russian forces on the Ukraine border. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/28/concerns-mount-over-russian-troop-buildup-on-ukraine-border/ The United Nations Security Council will meet Friday to discuss the ongoing crisis in Ukraine as concerns mount over new details about Russia's military buildup on the Ukrainian border, including Moscow's reported efforts to camouflage troops and equipment. The council is expected to meet privately Friday afternoon, a day after the U.N. General Assembly approved a resolution affirming Ukraine's territorial integrity and deeming the referendum that led to Russia's annexation of the Crimean Peninsula illegal. The vote came as the Pentagon said there are no indications that Russian forces along the border with Ukraine are carrying out the kind of legitimate military exercises that Moscow has cited as the reason for their controversial deployment in the region, Reuters reported. The Pentagon calling someone else out for illegitimate military exercises? But wait, there is more rape happening, http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26758788 Ukraine's interim government says it will raise gas prices for domestic consumers by 50% in an effort to secure an International Monetary Fund (IMF) aid package. An official at Ukraine's Naftogaz state energy company said the price rise would take effect on 1 May, and further rises would be scheduled until 2018. Ukrainians are accustomed to buying gas at heavily subsidised rates. But the IMF has made subsidy reform a condition of its deal. Ukraine currently buys more than half of its natural gas from Russia's Gazprom, and then sells it on to consumers at below market prices. Yury Kolbushkin, budget and planning director at Naftogaz, told reporters that gas prices for district heating companies would also rise by 40% from 1 July. IMF negotiators are still in Kiev to negotiate a package of measures worth billions of dollars to help Ukraine's interim government plug its budget deficit and meet foreign loan repayments. The IMF is helping to destroy Ukraine as much as anyone else. The IMF is also asking Ukraine to crack down on corruption and end central bank support for the Ukrainian currency. That does not seem like a logical course to take. Unless they want Ukraine to be part of the EU and use the Euro as currency. Which is also not very logical course with the trend that has been happening. (Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Cyprus... bank bailouts and austerity) Quote
Argus Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 Right, who are those Russian sympathizers again? dre and tinydancer to start Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 First of all Id like a cite for that. Next... you still didnt answer the question. Do you believe Crimeans should have a right to decide their own future or not? You DONT. This is just a sporting event for you. I think everyone should have the right to decide their own future. Unlike you, I don't think a real free referedum can be held with Russians pointing AK-47s in peoples faces as they vote. Now how about you answer a question of mine. Would you wholeheartedly support Russia if it invaded all of Ukraine? Georgia? France? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 I respectfully disagree. While the offshoot of governing a stable and secure society ( relatively safe and secure for the average citizen) also makes it comfortable for the leadership I do not believe that the personal interests of those in charge are the primary priority. The leadership of a country has a far better understanding of the needs and wants of its citizens than do the interlopers. Many societies do not have an educated and informed populace that is required to sustain a democracy so dictatorships or monarchies are the only form of governing that will sustain public order. If the government does not have the support of a very large number of the population then it does not survive. It must therefore identify and facilitate their needs and wants. This is utter nonsense. The only people a dictatorship needs to have the support of are the ones with guns. As for dictatators having the best interests of the people at heart, rarther than themselves or their own egotism, have a gander at North Korea some day. History is rife with corrupt leaders who ran their countries into the ground through their ignorance, stupidity and greed. Ukraine isn't actually a bad example of the contemporary version. Russia is another. Putin doesn't care about the well-being of Russians, he only cares about his own ego, and recreating what the thinks of as the glory days of Soviet power. Around the world today, there are more incompetent, corrupt governments than not, most run by autocratic leaders. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Posted March 28, 2014 dre and tinydancer to start Alright, show me the posts that prove that. Actually since your reply is two weeks after my post, you should have examples ready on hand. Quote
Argus Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 Rue, just so you know, Russia is not communist anymore, and there are plenty of capitalists in Russia running successful businesses. Russia has a lot of problems, but apart from the lingering effects of 75 years of communist oppression, communism is no longer one of them. Certainly organized crime is a problem, as you mention, but I don't think Putin is the pawn of the crime syndicates... rather, he tells the crime syndicates what to do, in a sense, the criminal empires are just another arm of the Russian government. The difference in capitalism in Russia is it's based on who you can bribe to get your way and to make life difficult for competitors. Having you competition arrested by the government, and the business sold at a huge discount - to you - is invariably good for business. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 I'm very pessimistic about all this. The thing has been allowed to escalate to a situation where none of the parties involved has an honourable retreat. Goes to say much about our Finnish government that they fully support the EU-sanctions on Russia because of Ukraine even though we in Finland are desperately dependant on trade with Russia. WTF!!! Idiots but they have been voted in by ourselves. I think Finland's long term interests are not best served by allowing Russia to believe they can invade and annex any of its smaller, weaker neighbors with relative ease - given Finland is one of their smaller, weaker neighbours and all... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Posted March 28, 2014 The difference in capitalism in Russia is it's based on who you can bribe to get your way and to make life difficult for competitors. Newsflash :It's not just Russia that is prone to that. Quote
Rue Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Bonam here s my subjective opinion response to your comments on Russia's economy in the spirit of debate and to challenge your statement on capitalism in Russia. 66 billion in aid was donated from from the West to Russia when the Soviet Empire collapsed. It hasn't created the free markets the West thought it would at all: reference::www.nytimes.com/2000/11/02/world/why-west-s-billions-failed-to-give-Russia-a-robust-economy-html. Putin has forecast oil remaining at $104 a barrel the next 1-5 years. This means if oil prices dip below that Russia is in deep trouble. It spent 50 billion on Sochi when it already had a huge deficit. I would also argue Russia has no manufacturing sector capable of helping take the load off its dependence on oil exports precisely because it has failed to create a free market place and generate jobs and economic activity. Th This year in only the first quarter 50 billion in capital was transferred out of Russia. Last year in the entire year 63 billion was transferred out. Combine corporate debt of Russian corporations is $650 billion. Gold reserves went down 16,4 billion this year. Interestingly when Crimea was invaded this happened at the same time crippling inflation let to food shortages across Russia. Accordng to La Suisse Group in is 2013 Global Report, 110 billionaires in Russia control 35% of all its assets. 50% of Russia's investments are placed in offshore banks and are not re-entering its markets to generate more investment and development. In the Ukraine, Russian invested 15 billion. In Russia the old line Stalinists who want KGB rule are a minority trying to push back the clock. They are like the aging baby boomers in Quebec who cling to the notion of separatism. In the real world however the next generation of twenty something has moved past chauvinism and borders and has embraced a borderless world where internet and cell phone makes such things a farse. We live in a world now where a person in Russia or Egypt can see how someone lives on the street in London, New York, Tokyo and therefore will expect the same standards. Edited March 28, 2014 by Rue Quote
dre Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 Alright, show me the posts that prove that. Actually since your reply is two weeks after my post, you should have examples ready on hand. Good luck with that! LOL. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Posted March 28, 2014 Good luck with that! LOL. I guess it was more rhetorical since I expect a certain outcome. Quote
iolo Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) The Crimeans want to re-join Russia, to which they have always belonged. Do all you strange persons worship Kruschev? Why, for goodness sake? Edited March 28, 2014 by iolo Quote
Big Guy Posted March 28, 2014 Report Posted March 28, 2014 This is utter nonsense. The only people a dictatorship needs to have the support of are the ones with guns. As for dictatators having the best interests of the people at heart, rarther than themselves or their own egotism, have a gander at North Korea some day. History is rife with corrupt leaders who ran their countries into the ground through their ignorance, stupidity and greed. Ukraine isn't actually a bad example of the contemporary version. Russia is another. Putin doesn't care about the well-being of Russians, he only cares about his own ego, and recreating what the thinks of as the glory days of Soviet power. Around the world today, there are more incompetent, corrupt governments than not, most run by autocratic leaders. That is a unique and courageous opinion of my opinion. Thanks for sharing. I continue to have difficulty giving credence to statements like :”He was thinking ...”, “They are all ...”, “His motives for the action was ...” and “The only reason he did this was ...”. I do not have insight as what people are thinking but instead gauge my opinions based on their actions and the consequences of those actions. Nor do I dismiss points of view different from my own as “nonsense”. That would be myopic and certainly not productive. I will take another look at the current regime in North Korea as per your suggestion. Thanks for the input. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
dre Posted March 29, 2014 Report Posted March 29, 2014 I think everyone should have the right to decide their own future. Unlike you, I don't think a real free referedum can be held with Russians pointing AK-47s in peoples faces as they vote. Now how about you answer a question of mine. Would you wholeheartedly support Russia if it invaded all of Ukraine? Georgia? France? No... Unlike you Im pretty consistant in my opposition to the use off non-defensive military force. If I had it my way Russia would leave, and allow Crimeans to have a referendum in the absence of both Russian and Ukrainian troops, and free of Russian and Ukrainian influence. I never said I "supported" anything Russia has done. I simpliy mocked the faux outrage from western powers that are fresh off invading a country, setting up torture prisons, and getting hundreds of thousands of people killed. And you have the same problem... As a supporter of the invasion, occupation, and wholesale torture and slaughter of people in Iraq, you just sound silly crying about whats happened in Crimea. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Shady Posted March 29, 2014 Report Posted March 29, 2014 No... Unlike you Im pretty consistant in my opposition to the use off non-defensive military force. If I had it my way Russia would leave, and allow Crimeans to have a referendum in the absence of both Russian and Ukrainian troops, and free of Russian and Ukrainian influence. I never said I "supported" anything Russia has done. I simpliy mocked the faux outrage from western powers that are fresh off invading a country, setting up torture prisons, and getting hundreds of thousands of people killed. And you have the same problem... As a supporter of the invasion, occupation, and wholesale torture and slaughter of people in Iraq, you just sound silly crying about whats happened in Crimea. The two situations aren't similar at all. At least if any real critical thinking is done. Quote
GostHacked Posted March 29, 2014 Author Report Posted March 29, 2014 The two situations aren't similar at all. At least if any real critical thinking is done. Let us know when you are ready to engage in said critical thinking. Dre and others are calling both situations deplorable. As I. However many who cant think critically for themselves, migrate to one side or the other, calling foul on the other, when they participate in the same thing. Is anyone really going to believe Kerry when he talks about invading countries is such a 19 century line of though? He might be right, but the USA brought that line of thinking along with them into the 20th century via Iraq through official US foreign policy. So unless you can call out both sides then we can make some progress. Kind of like how you call Obama out for wars, but yet support Bush during Iraq, and call Putin an evil man for doing the same thing. Invading another country. It's also not like the west has had their hands in that area since the break up of the Soviet Union in order to create this new supernational state (The EU) through economic 'ties' run and dictated by the world bank, central banks and IMF. When we saw many new nations emerge from the dust of the Soviet Union, the west went in full bore to get as much business as they can. It was a nice divide and conquer tactic by the west. Quote
eyeball Posted March 29, 2014 Report Posted March 29, 2014 The two situations aren't similar at all. At least if any real critical thinking is done. No, if the loss of life is anything to go by our super-power is about as subtle as a bull in a China shop when it comes to bullying it's way around the world. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Shady Posted March 29, 2014 Report Posted March 29, 2014 Let us know when you are ready to engage in said critical thinking. Dre and others are calling both situations deplorable. As I. However many who cant think critically for themselves, migrate to one side or the other, calling foul on the other, when they participate in the same thing. But it's not the same thing. Why are you and others being obtuse? Is it deliberate? Iraq wasn't invaded to be annexed. It wasn't invaded to be kept at all. It was a continuation of a string of events going back many years, mostly starting with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, it's subsequent defeat, and post-defeat agreed upon obligations, which it violated too many times to count. Money and lives were poured into Iraq to help it at some point, stand on it's own, as an independent country, free of dictatorship. Putin's crimea land grab is the complete opposite. But as a proud member of the "blame the West, make excuses for the rest" club, I fully expect you not to acknowledge any of the differences. Just as the other members of the club have.refused to do so. Quote
iolo Posted March 29, 2014 Report Posted March 29, 2014 The Crimea was Russian, and is inhabited by Russians. If you try to organise a fascist putsch in another country's sphere of interest, better make sure you have the fire-power to back your bullying. Quote
WWWTT Posted March 29, 2014 Report Posted March 29, 2014 No, if the loss of life is anything to go by our super-power is about as subtle as a bull in a China shop when it comes to bullying it's way around the world. Funny you should write that! http://news.yahoo.com/steven-seagal-loves-putin-might-become-russian-citizen-153636115.html WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
WWWTT Posted March 29, 2014 Report Posted March 29, 2014 But it's not the same thing. Why are you and others being obtuse? Is it deliberate? Iraq wasn't invaded to be annexed. It wasn't invaded to be kept at all. It was a continuation of a string of events going back many years, mostly starting with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, it's subsequent defeat, and post-defeat agreed upon obligations, which it violated too many times to count. Money and lives were poured into Iraq to help it at some point, stand on it's own, as an independent country, free of dictatorship. Putin's crimea land grab is the complete opposite. But as a proud member of the "blame the West, make excuses for the rest" club, I fully expect you not to acknowledge any of the differences. Just as the other members of the club have.refused to do so. There is some merit in this comment (my opinion) However you ignore the fact that in the last 10+ years since the US led coalition invaded, over 1 million people have died a violent death at the hands of anothers actions within Iraq! So then what's more important, human life, or a political leader? If you guessed political leader, than you are a fascist! If you guessed human life, than you are a socialist! It's that simple! Russia just proved that they are still a socialist country! Just look at the critics of Russia. That alone says it all! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.