bleeding heart Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Argus, the invasion precipitated the violence. That violence may have occurred without my instigations does not absolve me...a universal moral stance that everyone (except supporters of the Iraq War) grasps without problem. And the principle (in terms of the effects of international aggression) was laid out clearly in the Nuremberg principles--by the Americans, in fact--to universal applause. I too applaud this sober American addendum, and recognize that it is not conveniently restricted to the Nazis. (And in fact, they were perfectly explicit that it was not so restricted.) And I'm not laying all the blame on Westerners; I clearly, deliberately have called it a "shared responsibility." I used that phrase advisedly and consciously. You're the only one who is trying to downplay the agency and guilt of any of the offending entities. Edited March 7, 2014 by bleeding heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Greasy political hacks, none of which has ever shown much inclination to give the Americans what they want and none of which has given them the things you allege they invaded for. It's not about what American people want. It really is about what Corporate America wants. The movement in Syria was part of the 'arab spring' movement and was inevitable. Come on, in Libya we saw British SAS with weapons and explosives attempting to make contact with the rebels. Even if the Arab spring was genuine, you had outside players assisting. Same thing we see in Syria, even if it was a genuine uprising, you have NATO giving the FSA a base of operations in Turkey. One thing is the West is supposed to be in a war on terror, and yet assisting those same terrorists if they happen to be against someone like Assad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I'd toss out the ambassador, too, close down their consulates, and order them to cut the size of their embassy staff in half. Most of them are spies anyway. That would be extremely stupid. If you were in charge the cold war would have turned hot, and we would all be dead. What the international community should be doing is is pressuring both Russia and the Crimean parliament to allow the UN to monitor the upcoming referendum on sucession. Crimeans have the legal right to have decide their own future under international law, and we should do what we can to make sure its fair, and reflects the wishes of Crimeans, and then respect the result, and push others to do so. The west should be in the business of honor peoples right to self determination, not trying to subvert it. We should also not recognize the current government of Ukraine, whos leader is a criminal that came into power as a result of violence, and has never had a SINGLE vote cast for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 What the international community should be doing is is pressuring both Russia and the Crimean parliament to allow the UN to monitor the upcoming referendum on sucession. Crimeans have the legal right to have decide their own future under international law, and we should do what we can to make sure its fair, and reflects the wishes of Crimeans, and then respect the result, and push others to do so.You may be right given the unique fact that Khrushchev added Crimea to Ukraine. There is however no generalized right of secession, as General Lee and the U.S. Confederacy learned the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Argus, the invasion precipitated the violence. That violence may have occurred without my instigations does not absolve me...a universal moral stance that everyone (except supporters of the Iraq War) grasps without problem. And the principle (in terms of the effects of international aggression) was laid out clearly in the Nuremberg principles--by the Americans, in fact--to universal applause. I too applaud this sober American addendum, and recognize that it is not conveniently restricted to the Nazis. (And in fact, they were perfectly explicit that it was not so restricted.) And I'm not laying all the blame on Westerners; I clearly, deliberately have called it a "shared responsibility." I used that phrase advisedly and consciously. You're the only one who is trying to downplay the agency and guilt of any of the offending entities. Only to the extent that everything I've read and heard by knowledgeable people have suggested Iraq's future was stark, and that it was much like Yugoslavia, held together by one brutal dictator, and doomed to fly apart in violence and civil war the instant he was gone. So suppose we backtrack. Suppose I use my magic wand to go back in time, and prevent the Iraq war from happening. No violence! Yayyy! But then, uhm, Sadaam had a heart attack two years ago. Already hundreds of thousands have died in the violence with no end in sight! Iran and Turkey are threatening each other as Saudi Arabia and the gulf states pour money and weapons in to the Suunis! And guess what? The war is going to go on for years! Maybe it would have happened that way. From all I heard, that was pretty likely. So what guilt does the west really have, especially given it did try, collectively, to hold the violence down to a minimum, and that western soldiers did die there doing their best to prevent anarchy and chaos. I mean, the Americans would have left years ago were it not for their fears the Iraqis would immediately start slaughtering each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 That would be extremely stupid. If you were in charge the cold war would have turned hot, and we would all be dead. You have a very strange view of the world if you think booting out an ambassador would lead to nuclear war. What the international community should be doing is is pressuring both Russia and the Crimean parliament to allow the UN to monitor the upcoming referendum on sucession. Crimeans have the legal right to have decide their own future under international law, and we should do what we can to make sure its fair, and reflects the wishes of Crimeans, and then respect the result, and push others to do so. Except there is no way of holding a fair election under these conditions. The Russian population there is all riled up by media coverage (provided by Russia) that they're about to be attacked and slaughtered by the nationalists and Nazis in charge in Kyev. No independent media is being allowed, and there are Russian soldiers in the streets. The west should be in the business of honor peoples right to self determination, not trying to subvert it. We should also not recognize the current government of Ukraine, whos leader is a criminal that came into power as a result of violence, and has never had a SINGLE vote cast for him. Sorry, What? I'm confused. It seems that mobs of Russians in the street are expressing the people's will but mobs of Ukrainians in the street are committing violence and overthrowing the legitimate criminals -- er government. The parliament in Kyev was elected by the Ukrainian people. 328 of them voted to impeach the last president. 338 of them named the Turchynov as ACTING president prior to elections they have scheduled for May. Why is Turchynov a criminal? *I'll give you time to check with Russian Television to get an answer back to me* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 It's not about what American people want. It really is about what Corporate America wants. Whatever! They didn't get what the conspiracy theorists claim they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for anyway! Come on, in Libya we saw British SAS with weapons and explosives attempting to make contact with the rebels. Even if the Arab spring was genuine, you had outside players assisting. Same thing we see in Syria, even if it was a genuine uprising, you have NATO giving the FSA a base of operations in Turkey. One thing is the West is supposed to be in a war on terror, and yet assisting those same terrorists if they happen to be against someone like Assad. There were a lot of players in Libya. Are you saying the people who overthrew Khaddafy were terrorists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Except there is no way of holding a fair election under these conditions. The Russian population there is all riled up by media coverage (provided by Russia) that they're about to be attacked and slaughtered by the nationalists and Nazis in charge in Kyev. No independent media is being allowed, and there are Russian soldiers in the streets. If Russia wasnt there they wouldnt be allowed to have a referendum AT ALL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Whatever! They didn't get what the conspiracy theorists claim they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for anyway! Yes they did. American companies made a fortune on oil contracts, and the US pumped oil out of Iraq after the invasion without even metering it. Billions and billions of wealth belonging to Iraqis dissapeared. Over a trillion dollars was looted from the American tax payers, and wound up in the pockets of other Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 If Russia wasnt there they wouldnt be allowed to have a referendum AT ALL. Why would they need that referendum? What facts do you have about problems of people of Crimea with Ukraine before the Russian invasion? Do you know about native people of Crimea - Crimean Tatars, who, frankly speaking, hate Russia (not Russian people). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Argus, Argus, you keep talking about a speculative vision of what might have occurred...and pretend that it's precisely equal to what has occurred. Hundreds of thousands dead, all so that the new leader can continue with the sectarian violence (the leader, Argus, not just foreign jihadists or whatnot), and send the torture regime back up and running, and have death penalty numbers higher than Saddam did. All that death is a tragedy....and not just the "American deaths," which for reasons of your own seems to be more of an issue to you. I have no idea why. And no, the coalition didn't keep a lid on the violence, they precipitated it (not to mention some outright perpetrative war crimes....up to and including the very invasion itself). What "could have" happened? We're talking about what did happen. A catastrophe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) Whatever! They didn't get what the conspiracy theorists claim they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for anyway! Correct, conspiracy theorists like George Bush used fake evidence to get into a war with Iraq. Yellowcake from Niger? Remember cCrveball?? But it was also US official policy to intervene in Iraq. Meaning they had a plan. There were a lot of players in Libya. Yes there were. Are you saying the people who overthrew Khaddafy were terrorists? Yes. And his name was Gaddafi. Edited March 8, 2014 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 According to the constitution of Ukraine there is nothing illegal about ousting the president: http://www.president.gov.ua/en/content/constitution.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 If Russia wasnt there they wouldnt be allowed to have a referendum AT ALL. Sorry? Russia is not a democratic state of any sort. Ukraine is and was a democratic state. It's previous president was a Russian. As I asked when you suggested this drivel in another of the Ukrainian threads, can you give us information on the big separatist movement in Crimea which existed prior to a month ago? Can you tell us about efforts to separate Crimea and join Russia? Do you know ANYTHING about what you're talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Yes they did. American companies made a fortune on oil contracts, and the US pumped oil out of Iraq after the invasion without even metering it. Billions and billions of wealth belonging to Iraqis dissapeared. Over a trillion dollars was looted from the American tax payers, and wound up in the pockets of other Americans. I'm sure you have cites for that from somewhere respectable. IE, NOT Russian cites and not crazy conspiracy wacko cites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Sorry? Russia is not a democratic state of any sort. Ukraine is and was a democratic state. It's previous president was a Russian. As I asked when you suggested this drivel in another of the Ukrainian threads, can you give us information on the big separatist movement in Crimea which existed prior to a month ago? Can you tell us about efforts to separate Crimea and join Russia? Do you know ANYTHING about what you're talking about? More retarded strawmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 More retarded strawmen. Sorry? You stated that the Crimeans would have voted to quit Ukraine before Russia invaded if they'd had the chance. Clearly, then, just as in Quebec, there must have been active political movements to separate from Ukraine. Am I wrong here? I'm merely asking, since you clearly know so much about them, to provide me with some information about the existing separatist movement. How is that a strawman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Sorry? You stated that the Crimeans would have voted to quit Ukraine before Russia invaded if they'd had the chance. Clearly, then, just as in Quebec, there must have been active political movements to separate from Ukraine. Am I wrong here? I'm merely asking, since you clearly know so much about them, to provide me with some information about the existing separatist movement. How is that a strawman? Look up what a strawman is. You are arguing against statements I didnt make... Like these.... Russia is not a democratic state of any sort. Ukraine is and was a democratic state. It's previous president was a Russian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) So just curious... Lets say that Russia left, and international observers were allowed to monitor a referendum to make sure it was fair. Would ANY of you support the right of Crimeans to self determination? Edited March 9, 2014 by dre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 So just curious... Lets say that Russia left, and international observers were allowed to monitor a referendum to make sure it was fair. Would ANY of you support the right of Crimeans to self determination? Self determination won't happen. It will become a puppet state of Russia that looks autonomous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 It has always been a known fact that Ukraine has been sharply divided to a Ukrainian part and a Russian part. However, that does not give the Russians any excuse to invade. Imagine if France attacked Canada by saying they are protecting their fellow Frenchmen in Quebec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Look up what a strawman is. You are arguing against statements I didnt make... Like these.... Russia is not a democratic state of any sort. Ukraine is and was a democratic state. It's previous president was a Russian. I suggest you look up 'honesty' instead. You have made all the statements I said you made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 So just curious... Lets say that Russia left, and international observers were allowed to monitor a referendum to make sure it was fair. Would ANY of you support the right of Crimeans to self determination? Crimea cannot survive as an independent state, nor would Russia ever permit it to be one. The current move of the Crimean 'government' is to join Crimea to Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 It has always been a known fact that Ukraine has been sharply divided to a Ukrainian part and a Russian part. However, that does not give the Russians any excuse to invade. Imagine if France attacked Canada by saying they are protecting their fellow Frenchmen in Quebec. If they did and some Frenchmen held a demonstration in the street dre would say it's a done deal and castigate everyone for not allowing Quebecers their proper 'self determination'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 It has always been a known fact that Ukraine has been sharply divided to a Ukrainian part and a Russian part. However, that does not give the Russians any excuse to invade. Imagine if France attacked Canada by saying they are protecting their fellow Frenchmen in Quebec. Replace Canada/Quebec with Mali and you'd be close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.