bleeding heart Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 As to Ukraine...whether or not McCain or anybody else would have handled this situation better (or even differently at all) is, I suppose, a possibility, but by definition a complete unknown that can never even be speculated upon rationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 "There was going to be violence anyway....so the US coalition cannot be responsible for the violence that itself precipitated." A paraphrase, but I think an accurate one. And yet, even in mocking it you can't actually come up with anything intelligent to counter it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) I doubt had John McCain or even Romney was in power there advisors would have approached Iran as Obama has or been out manouvered and publically humiliated the way Obama was in Syria. Putin in all likelihood would have had to use a different approach. Its true its all speculation but I personally believe Obama's failed foreign policy opened a hornet's nest with Putin signalling him Obama is a reluctant leader like Jimmy Carter not willing to taking decisive actions and being afraid to fail if he commits to an action. Iran has made a fool of Obama and so has Syria with Russia's coaching. Edited March 5, 2014 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) I love the posts that continue to try blame the US for the mess in the Ukraine. When in doubt, blame the US or Israel. Edited March 5, 2014 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Argus, the point counters itself. The notion that there would have been violence anyway--and how much of it--is a speculative matter that doesn't even faintly undermine the lived reality of really-existing violence: hundreds of thousands dead, a massive refugee crisis, an increasingly autocratic government itself guilty of sectarian bloodshed and with the torture regime back up and running full-tilt. There's this crazy notion that people like to cite: that we are responsible for the likely consequences of our own behavior. Since the current debacle (which is bloodier than ever under Saddam's vicious reign, no small achievement) was predictable--in fact, predicted--then yes, the coalition shares direct responsible for precipitating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 I love the posts that continue to try blame the US for the mess in the Ukraine. When in doubt, blame the US or Israel. Who is blaming the US for Ukraine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Argus, the point counters itself. The notion that there would have been violence anyway--and how much of it--is a speculative matter that doesn't even faintly undermine the lived reality of really-existing violence: hundreds of thousands dead, a massive refugee crisis, an increasingly autocratic government itself guilty of sectarian bloodshed and with the torture regime back up and running full-tilt. There's this crazy notion that people like to cite: that we are responsible for the likely consequences of our own behavior. Since the current debacle (which is bloodier than ever under Saddam's vicious reign, no small achievement) was predictable--in fact, predicted--then yes, the coalition shares direct responsible for precipitating it. Given the makeup of the Iraqi population a civil war was inevitable upon any sort of armed uprising (which is the only sort which would have removed the Baath party). So the fact remains there were only two options; dictatorship or civil war. But dictatorship is forever and civil wars can end. The Americans didn't manage things well, of course, but much of the blame now is on the outside influence of Al Queada types who are provoking backlashes. You can think of it this way. The US gave the Iraqi people a chance. They decided they hated each other a lot more than they wanted a peaceful country, and expressed this desire in who they put up in leadership positions. Conciliators are not much admired in the Arab world. Tough strong men who vow to kill anyone who opposes them are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) but by definition a complete unknown that can never even be speculated upon rationally. This nicely channels former U.S. defense Sec'y Donald Rumsfeld (on Iraq), whether it applies to Ukraine or not. But please continue with the thread derail anyway. I will patiently wait for Canadian "soft power" and razzle dazzle "peacekeeping" to save the day in Ukraine....and elsewhere. Edited March 5, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 I wouldn't know. Not being a Tea Party fruitloop or conspiracy theorist I haven't paid any attention. There is no conspiracy. I was referring to what Clinton said at the Benghazi hearings.'What does it matter , we have dead people ' paraphrasing here. These conspiracy theories would be more convincing if the US wound up with control of the things they were allegedly invading to get control for. See, if I was going to invade a country to gain control of it I wouldn't immediately put its leadership up for grabs in an election. I'd appoint a puppet president who would do what I wanted. Now why do you suppose the Americans didn't do that? What do you think Karzai of Afghanistan was? What about the new leadership of Iraq? How about Libya? Or you can simply try to bring revolutions about through various means of subversion to bring about what would seem like a legitimate grass roots movement. It's no conspiracy, we saw that kind of thing play out with how the GOP hijacked the Tea Party movement and marginalized the crap out of it. Like Syria, you mean? You think that was better? You think any homegrown change in Iraq would have been any different? See above. The movement in Syria was initiated by outside players. Not by Syrians. Knowing that NATO gave material support and a base of operations in Turkey for the Free Syrian Army (mostly made up of known terror groups, some foreign) tells me something different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) Actually we have ZERO proof of any such thing. NONE. ZIP. NADA. What we have is a conversation taped by Russian intelligence between two American diplomats long after the turmoil in Ukraine started, who were talking about it just like every other diplomat from every other country there was talking about it. You have simply interpreted it as "proof" of US involvement because you hate Americans. You are trying a tactic against me that others have used, and failed. I do not hate Americans. I do not like their government. There is a big difference that you need to understand. So you can stop with that kind of rhetoric now. It may not be the USA specifically or the USA may be one of many players but this revolution did not come from within. If Russia is involved on one side, you can put money on the notion that the USA is involved as well. As for what started it, I don't think anyone other than a fool can blame them because Ukraine's corrupt Russian puppet president decided to back away from the integration with Europe Ukraine has been negotiating for so long in favor of becoming a Russian puppet state. It wasn't the US that made that decision it was Putin, and all the upheaval stems from that. We have to go back some years to see how the Orange Revolution played out. Ukraine is a strategic geopolitical country. Part of the break away states from the former Soviet Union. The west helped facilitate that break up through various means. Now they will try to prevent the reintegration of those new nations back into Russia. Ukraine was on the ballot for EU and eventually NATO membership. NATO would LOVE another spot on Russia's doorstep like what happened in Poland. We have American puppet states, and Russian puppet stated. Please tell me which puppets are better? Edited March 5, 2014 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Saddam being a brutal dictator has absolutely nothing to do with the invasion. The US and west are absolutely fine with brutal dictators as long as they are cooperative. They were fine with Saddam as well until he stopped cooperating... even when he was at his most brutal. As with Libya. That rhetoric changed when Iraq and Libya both tried to introduce a new trading market for oil using something other than the US petro dollar. It was an economic threat to the USA, not a terrorist threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 As with Libya. That rhetoric changed when Iraq and Libya both tried to introduce a new trading market for oil using something other than the US petro dollar. It was an economic threat to the USA, not a terrorist threat. More nonsense. America imports less oil than ever, and will be energy independent within the decade. In fact, they're starting to export oil now. Your tinfoil musings are ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 More nonsense. America imports less oil than ever, and will be energy independent within the decade. In fact, they're starting to export oil now. And what currency are they trading the oil in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26447200 Security forces in Ukraine have accused the Russian army of disrupting mobile communications. Smaller-scale attacks have seen news websites and social media defaced with propaganda messages. Cyber-attacks were utilised heavily during Russia's 2008 conflict with Georgia. In that case, distributed denial of service attacks - known as DDoS - were used to overwhelm websites and servers in Georgia in the weeks leading up to the military action. The Georgian government said Russia was behind the DDoS attacks, but the Kremlin denied this - stating that it was possible for anyone, inside or outside Russia, to launch such an attack. Both the USA and Russia have dedicated cyberwar groups. Attacks on the information technology infrastructure was also present in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and Syria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) Bush_Cheney: As you well know, I was responding to a "thread derail," not initiating it. Which means, by definition, you are now as "guilty" of this as I am, which rather undermines your thoughtful and sober attempts at thread policing. Edited March 5, 2014 by bleeding heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Argus, The US did not "give the Iraqi people a chance." This kind of self-indulgent thinking, plagiarized from ancient, nationalist epic poems and children's tales, does nothing to illuminate the facts, or history. On the contrary, the coalition's behaviour precipitated the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people...again, as was extensively and continually predicted by those soberly opposed to the war....warnings which were mocked by the war's supporters, as we all remember quite well. Under the Nuremberg principles (that were, incidentally, or not, proposed and codified by rational American voices, remember) the "supreme international crime" is war of aggression...because all the subsequent horrors extrapolate from that aggression. This is understood at an elementary level, and for good reason. Further, the sectarian violence itself was explicitly exacerbated, and intentionally so. There was "mismanagement," as you say, but that is the lesser crime. And even given that...why are you quick to dismiss as unimportant "bad management," when the consequences have been so dire? This was a war of choice, after all; so at what point do you consider "bad management" to be an actual crime? (I'll give you a hint: in this case, it is a crime from first blush, automatically and by definition.) For the record, I am the one who is stating the obvious truth of "shared responsibility" (as I said earlier); you, on the other hand, desire to omit some of the offending parties, out of ideological convenience. Yours is a relatively radical stance, as apologetics generally is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelsel Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Kiev appeals Islamic terrorists for help.www.liveleak.com/view?i=755_139370427&comments=1Absolutely no news here... but the fact is speaking for itself: Dmitry Yarosh, OFFICIALY taking a post now in new government of Ukraine, PUBLICLY addresses for help to international terrorists, invites them to Ukraine and appeals for their bloody activity! And that is one of the "democrats" US and EU are currently dealing with in Ukraine. Bump... Okay, won't be surprise to get it to know soon that Obama weekly holds talks with Taliban and aQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASIP Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Kiev appeals Islamic terrorists for help. www.liveleak.com/view?i=755_139370427&comments=1 Absolutely no news here... but the fact is speaking for itself: Dmitry Yarosh, OFFICIALY taking a post now in new government of Ukraine, PUBLICLY addresses for help to international terrorists, invites them to Ukraine and appeals for their bloody activity! And that is one of the "democrats" US and EU are currently dealing with in Ukraine. Bump... Okay, won't be surprise to get it to know soon that Obama weekly holds talks with Taliban and aQ. Your link is a garbage web site. There is no any public address. This "news" is an old fake. It's an example of Putin's propaganda. For your knowledge, Crimean Tatars have bad blood with Chechens. Crimean Tatars are allies of Ukraine with regard to Crimea being within Ukraine. Edited March 7, 2014 by ASIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Canada is escalating tensions..... http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/russian-soldiers-ordered-to-leave-canada-by-end-of-day-1.2563620 Nine Russians soldiers participating in military exercises have been ordered to leave Canada by the end of today, as Canada continues to denounce the Russian occupation of the Crimean peninsula. According to a government source, the soldiers were given notice on Thursday, just days after Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced he was suspending all planned bilateral activities between the Canadian Armed Forces and the military of the Russian Federation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 What do you think Karzai of Afghanistan was? What about the new leadership of Iraq? How about Libya? Greasy political hacks, none of which has ever shown much inclination to give the Americans what they want and none of which has given them the things you allege they invaded for. See above. The movement in Syria was initiated by outside players. Not by Syrians. The movement in Syria was part of the 'arab spring' movement and was inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Argus, The US did not "give the Iraqi people a chance." This kind of self-indulgent thinking, plagiarized from ancient, nationalist epic poems and children's tales, does nothing to illuminate the facts, or history. On the contrary, the coalition's behaviour precipitated the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people...again, as was extensively and continually predicted by those soberly opposed to the war....warnings which were mocked by the war's supporters, as we all remember quite well. The war itself was quick and the casualties relatively light. The vast majority of casualties came afterwards, from attacks by Iraqis on Iraqis. Why do you insist on blaming westerners for that? I'll certainly agree Rumseeld was an idiot and that he made an idiotic mistake (among many idiotic mistakes he made) in dissolving the Iraqi police and military, but the people who made the decisions to set off car bombs and blow up markets and slaughter people were not Americans or westerners. When you talk about bad management what you're suggesting is its the Americans fault they weren't able to keep Iraqis and some outside religious extremists, from slaughtering each other. Yes, there's some truth in that, though I wonder what you mean by 'deliberate'. The only people deliberately exacerbating the religious tensions were Muslims. Was it predicted the Suunis and Shias would go for each other's throats? Sure. But that's what I meant when I said it would have happened anyway, however Sadaam and the Baath party were overthrown. Edited March 7, 2014 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Kiev appeals Islamic terrorists for help. www.liveleak.com/view?i=755_139370427&comments=1 Absolutely no news here... but the fact is speaking for itself: Dmitry Yarosh, OFFICIALY taking a post now in new government of Ukraine, PUBLICLY addresses for help to international terrorists, invites them to Ukraine and appeals for their bloody activity! And that is one of the "democrats" US and EU are currently dealing with in Ukraine. Bump... Okay, won't be surprise to get it to know soon that Obama weekly holds talks with Taliban and aQ. Are you a Russian hireling or one of Putin's useful idiots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Canada is escalating tensions.....http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/russian-soldiers-ordered-to-leave-canada-by-end-of-day-1.2563620Right. Canada's escalating tensions. Not Putin invading, conducting missile tests and now sinking Ukrainian ships.*rolls eyes* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Canada is escalating tensions..... http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/russian-soldiers-ordered-to-leave-canada-by-end-of-day-1.2563620 I'd toss out the ambassador, too, close down their consulates, and order them to cut the size of their embassy staff in half. Most of them are spies anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 "It is better to jaw jaw than to war war." - Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill (1874–1965) Tough to do that when you start to toss ambassadors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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