Nelson Mandela, an icon of freedom, tolerance and equality, dies at 95

[AngusThermopyle]

Thanks BC, I missed your post, sorry about that. For those who haven't heard of him I suggest they look into it. He was quite an impressive man by any metric. Artists such as Peter Gabriel and Kevin Kline have made him the subject of a song and movie in fact. Gabriel's song Biko tells the story of his death while A Dry White Season tells of his struggle. Interestingly A Dry White Season also illustrates the fact that not all white South Africans were just fine with the status quo. In fact all one has to do is watch Paul Simon's Graceland concert to see many young white and black people celebrating together and supporting the concept of equality in order to become aware of this fact.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....also illustrates the fact that not all white South Africans were just fine with the status quo. In fact all one has to do is watch Paul Simon's Graceland concert to see many young white and black people celebrating together and supporting the concept of equality in order to become aware of this fact.

You point out just how complex an issue it was, and certainly involved much more than Mandela's goals. I recall that entertainers started to boycott Sun City. Then there was the issue of "Coloured" people in South Africa. The whole thing started to collapse under its own weight.

[Mighty AC]

It is somewhat sad that Biko appears to have been forgotten by history when he was in fact a man of vision and peace that in my opinion rivaled or even surpassed Mandela.

I have to admit that I had never heard his name mentioned in school (or anywhere) until Woodstock 94 when I saw Peter Gabriel perform the song. The performance was powerful, and prompted me to read about who he was.

[On Guard for Thee]

Can you detail a few of these South African investments of Thatcher's for me? You seem to know a lot about it.

I was under the impression from those days that sanctions hurt black South Africans more than it did the ruling classes thus some were against sanctions. Sort of what we see with Iran.

Gold, banking, mining, especially diamonds, oil, to name a few. Just to be clear, I'm talking about her government and not her personally.

[The_Squid]

To simply call him a terrorist completely ignores what happened in the nearly 3 decades that he was in prison and the transformation that occured from fighter to leader.

It also ignores the fact that there was no retribution when he got out or when he became leader of the nation. It was a peaceful transition of power.

Calling him a terrorist and leaving it there is such a silly, one sided argument that ignores all the actual nuance to the story and ignores 3 decades of history. That story stops when the terrorist was sent to prison. The story carries on for decades after when he wasn't a terrorist in any way.

[DogOnPorch]

Gold, banking, mining, especially diamonds, oil, to name a few. Just to be clear, I'm talking about her government and not her personally.

Seeing that South Africa was part of the Commonwealth, this is not a big shocker. Either way, history shows us that she wasn't 'pro-Apartheid' or anything silly like that. Just because one doesn't go along with the mob's wishes doesn't mean one is wrong.

[DogOnPorch]

A Dry White Season tells of his struggle.

A great movie. As was 'Cry the Beloved Country'...which many Canadian kids of a certain era read in school.

Edited December 12, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[bud]

Seeing that South Africa was part of the Commonwealth, this is not a big shocker. Either way, history shows us that she wasn't 'pro-Apartheid' or anything silly like that. Just because one doesn't go along with the mob's wishes doesn't mean one is wrong.

the catholic church is against child rape and pedophilia but their actions or in-actions have enabled for it to continue.

[On Guard for Thee]

Seeing that South Africa was part of the Commonwealth, this is not a big shocker. Either way, history shows us that she wasn't 'pro-Apartheid' or anything silly like that. Just because one doesn't go along with the mob's wishes doesn't mean one is wrong.

SA left the commonwealth 18 years before Thatcher came to power, but I imagine you knew that. I think if you went along with the apartheid mob, then you were wrong. Racial discrimination was as wrong then as it is now.

[DogOnPorch]

SA left the commonwealth 18 years before Thatcher came to power, but I imagine you knew that. I think if you went along with the apartheid mob, then you were wrong. Racial discrimination was as wrong then as it is now.

Can you give MLW an example of Margaret Thatcher discriminating against black folks?

[On Guard for Thee]

Can you give MLW an example of Margaret Thatcher discriminating against black folks?

Do you think she failed to get involved in an attempt to stop apartheid because she wanted to help black folks? I was never a big fan of Brian Mulroney but I gave him full marks when, in a speech he made at the time, he confronted both the US and the UK by asking what the leaders of those countries (Reagan and Thatcher) would do if black racists took over the government of Canada and started stripping away the human rights of whites.

[bush_cheney2004]

... he confronted both the US and the UK by asking what the leaders of those countries (Reagan and Thatcher) would do if black racists took over the government of Canada and started stripping away the human rights of whites.

That takes big balls considering that "status Indians" didn't get the right to vote in Canada until 1960.

[On Guard for Thee]

That takes big balls considering that "status Indians" didn't get the right to vote in Canada until 1960.

And it only took SA 35 years more to achieve the same thing.

[Shady]

the catholic church is against child rape and pedophilia but their actions or in-actions have enabled for it to continue.

No more than any other profession.

[Guest Derek L]

Pretty much.....I worked with several South African ex-pats in the early 2000's...they had fled the country to the U.S. for green cards. One was an ex-military Afrikaner and another was of a garden variety "Commonwealth Citizen" state of mind, even though South Africa left the Commonwealth for a spell. Both were extremely sensitive to what had happened back home and were uneasy around American "blacks". Their worlds were literally turned upside down.

I'm married to one.....My wife's family had seen the writing on the walls in the mid 80s and didn’t like the prospects of another Robert Mugabe coming to power, with nuclear weapons, in South Africa…….As such, they like many other South African (and not only whites) professionals fled……Though the place didn’t turn quite into Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, and that can be attributed to both Mandela and the remaining vestiges of the Apartheid government, it has regressed nonetheless.

[DogOnPorch]

Do you think she failed to get involved in an attempt to stop apartheid because she wanted to help black folks? I was never a big fan of Brian Mulroney but I gave him full marks when, in a speech he made at the time, he confronted both the US and the UK by asking what the leaders of those countries (Reagan and Thatcher) would do if black racists took over the government of Canada and started stripping away the human rights of whites.

So your contention is that Thatcher was a racist who hated blacks?

[DogOnPorch]

That takes big balls considering that "status Indians" didn't get the right to vote in Canada until 1960.

Personally, I think people just need a scapegoat...and Thatcher is it.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm married to one.....My wife's family had seen the writing on the walls in the mid 80s and didn’t like the prospects of another Robert Mugabe coming to power, with nuclear weapons, in South Africa…….As such, they like many other South African (and not only whites) professionals fled……Though the place didn’t turn quite into Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, and that can be attributed to both Mandela and the remaining vestiges of the Apartheid government, it has regressed nonetheless.

It's tough enough to be an ex-pat in many situations just because of the cultural changes, but these folks were clearly experiencing much higher levels of anxiety because of the circumstances upon emigrating, loss of property, violence, fear for family still there, etc. I'll never forget that one of programmers drove an old beat up Ford Fiesta despite having a near six figure salary. It was like she was waiting to exhale and feel safe again.

The Afrikaner was much better adjusted and resigned to SA's fate, perhaps because of his military service. He told us that the wholesale violence and ANC tactics were very African in nature, not to be judged by less brutal western or even U.S. standards (e.g. lynchings).

[guyser]

No more than any other profession.

Lawyers, Engineers, Accountants, Insurance Brokers,Geologists .....who knew they openly harboured pedophiles

Maybe you have a link to same showing us this truth ? Or are you the Rob Ford of MLW ?

[On Guard for Thee]

So your contention is that Thatcher was a racist who hated blacks?

My contention is that apartheid was a racist form of government which stole the property, the human rights, and the dignity of blacks. Some government leaders actively opposed it, and some didn't and history shows where she stood. At least until it got too hot in the political kitchen.

[Hudson Jones]

I'm married to one.....My wife's family had seen the writing on the walls in the mid 80s and didn’t like the prospects of another Robert Mugabe coming to power, with nuclear weapons, in South Africa…….As such, they like many other South African (and not only whites) professionals fled……Though the place didn’t turn quite into Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, and that can be attributed to both Mandela and the remaining vestiges of the Apartheid government, it has regressed nonetheless.

It's tough enough to be an ex-pat in many situations just because of the cultural changes, but these folks were clearly experiencing much higher levels of anxiety because of the circumstances upon emigrating, loss of property, violence, fear for family still there, etc. I'll never forget that one of programmers drove an old beat up Ford Fiesta despite having a near six figure salary. It was like she was waiting to exhale and feel safe again.

The Afrikaner was much better adjusted and resigned to SA's fate, perhaps because of his military service. He told us that the wholesale violence and ANC tactics were very African in nature, not to be judged by less brutal western or even U.S. standards (e.g. lynchings).

Sigh.. if only things have stayed the same... then things would have been so much easier and better for the whites.

[Shady]

Sigh.. if only things have stayed the same... then things would have been so much easier and better for the whites.

False choice.

[DogOnPorch]

My contention is that apartheid was a racist form of government which stole the property, the human rights, and the dignity of blacks. Some government leaders actively opposed it, and some didn't and history shows where she stood. At least until it got too hot in the political kitchen.

So you're saying Thatcher was for Apartheid, then? I just want to be sure I understand your position.

[DogOnPorch]

False choice.

Seems to be worse for all parties these days. Miracle or not...

[On Guard for Thee]

So you're saying Thatcher was for Apartheid, then? I just want to be sure I understand your position.

I can't say she was for it, I don't propose to know what was going on inside her head, nor do I expect do you. I can only by her actions.