Nelson Mandela, an icon of freedom, tolerance and equality, dies at 95

Rue · December 10, 2013

I apologize for responding to B on this thread I felt I had to but back to this thread. There is no doubt going

to be a portion of history after Mandela comes out as elder statesman and leader of South Africa where

we have to look at some of his alliances.

He comes from a world where he was a Marxist revolutionary and so looked to Cuba, Russia, China,

East Germany, Czechoslovakia, all part of that empire in the past for support. They trained him and his

operatives. There was part of this man who believed violence was the only way to deal with violence and

he believed in armed violence at one point.

After his prison and release we see an elder statesman embracing his foes, but you and I do not know

what he was thinking when he would embrace certain leaders he knew were corrupt.

There were hints of it with his own wife, Winnie Mandela who he quickly distanced himself from because of

her use of armed gangs and corruption to consolidate a power base for herself. His deliberate taking of Grace Machel

as his wife was a political image act to provide a counter image to Winnie Mandela.

Now he had some very interesting political ideas where he did look the other way with dictators who were oppressing

their people. It could be he was just too old to take on the world at that point, or did what Ghandi did, embrace known

enemies trying to resist continuous fighting.

Its hard to know.

What I did find strange was there was the memorial in South Africa and the people loudly booing there President but

loudly applauding Robert Mugabe the bloody dictator of Zimbabwe and everything Mandela rejected. Its very ironic.

I know Zuma is considered a corrupt tyrant but Mugabe? To cheer that man at Mandela's funeral and look the other way

as to what he has become? Some people are very selective as to what parts of history they will comment on.

They sometimes block out the bad and only see the good in someone after they are dead.

There will be years to examine the strengths and weaknesses of Mandela and of course other African leaders and

Obama who clearly has a special role in Africa like no other leader today. He is their defacto leader.

Obama was in eloquent form today. I may disagree with some of his foreign policy but his role as both a role model for

blacks and leader of the most powerful nation on the planet is a crucial one.

No leader from China, Cuba, no Putin is going to appeal to the world like he does part of that is he is black, part of it

is he is American representing the only system offering a genuine alternative.

If you think Putin or China or Raoul Castro can capture the hearts and souls of the young, hah I don't think so.

WWWTT · December 10, 2013

No one is talking about other world powers being a 'moral compass' though.

So you are saying that Cuba helped someone who was/is a moral compass is a bad thing?

Or no sorry, you are saying that Cuba is a bad country, right?

But Mandela is a good person, why would a bad country help a good person?

And why wasn't Britain and the US helping Mandela before?

These countries are supposed to be good countries.

WWWTT

WWWTT · December 10, 2013

To think that Nelson Mandela is a terrorist is to belittle the struggle that Nelson must have went through, knowing that only a strong fight will free his people!

To think that to fight for your freedom is terrorism means that you are willing to let the government take away your rights without a fight!

The two things I will remember when I remember Nelson M. will be Human rights and the second will be how he unintentionally exposed the numerous racist politicians around the world, right here in the west!

WWWTT

Shady · December 11, 2013

What do you do as a prestigous world leader while at a funeral commemorating a significant historical figure? If you're the current failure-in-chief, it's time to take a selfie!!!!!!

What an absolute embarassment this guy is.

cybercoma · December 11, 2013

To think that Nelson Mandela is a terrorist is to belittle the struggle that Nelson must have went through, knowing that only a strong fight will free his people!

To think that to fight for your freedom is terrorism means that you are willing to let the government take away your rights without a fight!

The two things I will remember when I remember Nelson M. will be Human rights and the second will be how he unintentionally exposed the numerous racist politicians around the world, right here in the west!

WWWTT

Even if you agree with what he did, it was still by definition terrorism.

On Guard for Thee · December 11, 2013

Oops, there's that dangerous word again.

WWWTT · December 11, 2013

What do you do as a prestigous world leader while at a funeral commemorating a significant historical figure? If you're the current failure-in-chief, it's time to take a selfie!!!!!!

What an absolute embarassment this guy is.

Couldn't agree more with you Shady, you are talking about the current PM of UK right? Because here's a little background info on him to back up your claim!

WWWTT

Edited December 11, 2013 by WWWTT

WWWTT · December 11, 2013

Even if you agree with what he did, it was still by definition terrorism.

And yet David Cameron of the UK won't even say Nelson Mandela and terrorism in the same sentence!

But at one time wanted him executed for terrorism!

WWWTT

WWWTT · December 11, 2013

Doesn't end there Cybercoma!

Here's a good Canadian connection

http://globalnews.ca/news/1014755/1014755/

WWWTT

WWWTT · December 11, 2013

Oh no the Canadian conservative connection supporting the previous all white South African government doesn't stop there! Follow this link!

http://harpercrusade.blogspot.ca/2010/05/stephen-harper-northern-foundation-and.html?m=1

Stephen Harper and Tony Clement!

WWWTT

WWWTT · December 11, 2013

Now,to Argus' point,there was a war going on to stop the spread of Communism.And it's true that some of that was going.But,it also gave these dictators convenient cover to kill as many political opponents they could by calling any and all dissent "communist".

As this relates to Mr. Mandela,it's true he was an avowed Marxist and wanted violent revolution as the only way to affect change.But,he changed during his incarceration and realized that you cannot answer a fist with a fist....

Who said communism was a bad thing?

Oh and by the way, if anyone think that communism is a bad thing, then they probably don't like the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms because in section 2.b, it clearly states that everyone has the freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression!

Beware of people who like to use labels on others!

Racism is all about using labels on others!

WWWTT

Edited December 11, 2013 by WWWTT

WWWTT · December 11, 2013

The ANC WAS a terrorist organiztion by any unbaised definition of the term. It never gave the South African Army much problem. It primarily attacked civilians. South Africa's own truth and reconcilliation committee also found that the ANC commited numerous acts of torture against its own recruits or those blacks suspected of being informers or collaborators.

Oh but did the previous all white South African government only deny the rights of black males in the military?

Or did they deny ALL blacks in South Africa, women, children, the elderly and the poor?

You ever heard of the term "fighting fire with fire"?

WWWTT

Shady · December 11, 2013

Couldn't agree more with you Shady, you are talking about the current PM of UK right? Because here's a little background info on him to back up your claim!

WWWTT

No I'm taking about the current adolescent occupying the White House.

cybercoma · December 11, 2013

And yet David Cameron of the UK won't even say Nelson Mandela and terrorism in the same sentence!

But at one time wanted him executed for terrorism!

WWWTT

So what? Nelson Mandela signed off on car bombs, bombing cafes, planting landmines in streets, and more. Whether you agree with the reasons he did these things or not, it's still terrorism. Why won't you just sit here and admit that you support terrorism if the ends justify the means? Because that's exactly what's going on here. It's the same reason some people accept Palestinian terrorism that targets civilians (it's in the name of their freedom so it's ok, their thinking goes), but get angry at Israel for killing civilians when they're attacking terrorists that hide in residential complexes. Terrorism for those people is ok, as long as the ends justify the means. For them, terrorism is a valid tactic to use against oppression. I have more respect for someone that will stand up and admit that this is how they think, than those that are going to hide from the word terrorist because it's not politically fashionable.

Edited December 11, 2013 by cybercoma

Mighty AC · December 11, 2013

I have more respect for someone that will stand up and admit that this is how they think, than those that are going to hide from the word terrorist because it's not politically fashionable.

You're not supposed to be honest like that, it weakens the us versus them mentality leaders rely on. I'm pretty sure war is just an acronym for "we are right". We all make excuses for violent acts, if we agree with the ends. A terrorist is just a freedom fighter if killing for a god, a country or a cause we agree with. Gods are already, slow but surely, falling out of favour, now we just need to work on the other major lever of motivation to commit unethical acts, patriotism.

DogOnPorch · December 11, 2013

You're not supposed to be honest like that, it weakens the us versus them mentality leaders rely on. I'm pretty sure war is just an acronym for "we are right". We all make excuses for violent acts, if we agree with the ends. A terrorist is just a freedom fighter if killing for a god, a country or a cause we agree with. Gods are already, slow but surely, falling out of favour, now we just need to work on the other major lever of motivation to commit unethical acts, patriotism.

Actually, there are more folks on the planet now than all the previous folks combined...or something like that. That would mean religion is, really, growing in strength.

Edited December 11, 2013 by DogOnPorch

Argus · December 11, 2013

So you are saying that Cuba helped someone who was/is a moral compass is a bad thing?

Or no sorry, you are saying that Cuba is a bad country, right?

But Mandela is a good person, why would a bad country help a good person?

And why wasn't Britain and the US helping Mandela before?

These countries are supposed to be good countries.

WWWTT

Mandela was a Communist dedicated to revolution against a pro-western state. Why WOULDN'T Communist Cuba help him? Cuba sent troops to Angola, and used them with the ANC in attacks on Rhodesia to the extent South Africa sent troops to confront them.

Neither the Cubans, no the ANC fared very well in those exchanges.

Argus · December 11, 2013

Who said communism was a bad thing?

Pretty much anyone who ever suffered under it, or knows anything about it.

Argus · December 11, 2013

Oh but did the previous all white South African government only deny the rights of black males in the military?

Or did they deny ALL blacks in South Africa, women, children, the elderly and the poor?

You ever heard of the term "fighting fire with fire"?

WWWTT

Did the SA government plant explosives in markets, restaurants and on roads? I don't seem to recall anything about that...

GostHacked · December 11, 2013

They didn't use nukes. In fact, nukes have only been used against civilians on two occasions, both in 1945. Of course, if they had been used by a non-state, it would have been a heinous act of terrorism. But since they were used by a state, it's completely defensible.

Now can you see how arbitrary and pointless the word terrorism actually is?

I would argue that several tactical nukes have been used since the two dropped on Japan. Tactical small yield nukes are carried by several fighter/bomber craft. I've heard several reports, but not sure if they are confirmed about the US using small tactical nukes in Iraq and Syria.

http://rt.com/news/us-nuked-iraq-during-gulf-war-report/

Michael Hardner · December 11, 2013

Let's watch out for thread drift here. Nukes in Iraq are another topic.

WWWTT · December 11, 2013

No I'm taking about the current adolescent occupying the White House.

Oh OK then, not sure how Barak Obama tried to stop Nelson Mandela like David Cameron did?

WWWTT

WWWTT · December 11, 2013

Even if you agree with what he did, it was still by definition terrorism.

By "definition" ? Really?

Not by the international community!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

WWWTT

jbg · December 11, 2013

So you are saying that Cuba helped someone who was/is a moral compass is a bad thing?

I once started a thread sarcastically taking the position that Fidel Castro was a moral compass. I was suspended for three (3) weeks for my efforts at humor.