August1991 Posted October 20, 2013 Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 (edited) We will have to see the details but when I saw the cheese provisions, my jaw dropped. Under current supply management rules, Canada restricts cheese imports to about 2% of consumption. With this "free" trade agreement, this import restriction will double - it will rise to about 4%. Horrors! [/sarcasm] So far, I am under impressed - and the lack of details tells me to suspect this is PR. I suspect that Harper needed a headline, and the Europeans for their own reasons obliged. ------ To me, the term "free-trade negotiations" is an oxymoron. It makes no sense. What sense is there in two governments negotiating whether to let husbands beat their wives? "We'll forbid wife-beating in our country if you forbid wife-beating in your country." IMHO, Canadian governments should stop Canadian men beating their wives regardless of what foreign governments do. If foreign governments allow wife-beating, that's no reason or excuse for us to allow such a thing in Canada. Similarly, if Europeans restrict imports or subsidize production, that's no reason for us to do the same. Edited October 20, 2013 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 20, 2013 Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 I've never understood why we cater to certain farming groups the way we do when we cheerfully cut the throats of those employed in so many other industries destroyed by imports. Given the small numbers of producers involved, vs the huge number of consumers it beggars belief. By some accounts the prices of things like milk and cheese are twice as high in Canada because of these regulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 20, 2013 Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 4% is still a doubling - and I'm wondering if dairy farmers are rockbed supporters of the Conservatives, or rather if they have been traditionally. The agriculture lobby is strong, and this seems to be a globalized thing too. I remember some Chinese friends of mine complaining about Korea's agro subsidies awhile back. Why wouldn't we just drop our tariffs ? Auguste, you sound like my 80s peacenik friends who wanted unilateral disarmament ! In other words, why not get something from the other guy if you're just going to give it up anyway ? The dairy quotas were said to be the thing that ended up making the deal happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienB Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) I've never understood why we cater to certain farming groups the way we do when we cheerfully cut the throats of those employed in so many other industries destroyed by imports. Given the small numbers of producers involved, vs the huge number of consumers it beggars belief. By some accounts the prices of things like milk and cheese are twice as high in Canada because of these regulations. We need food. We don't need all industry. essential vs. nonessential self sufficiency is very important for essential things from the personal level to the regional level. Just look at the susceptibility of Athens as a result of the black sea grain trade. It is a liability not to control your own food destiny. We have lots of green lawns and so few food gardens these days. People need to wake up. An investment in aquaponics or hydroponics can reduce your food costs over time. I'm all for free trade except in essential goods. Essential goods must be controlled so much so they should be in very close assocation with the state as they are a national security concern. a baseline quota needs to be obtained. And no supply is not a reason for the price spikes. It is the cost of transport and profit overhead, worse soil quality, ,more junk in the soil, a requirement to buy seeds every year because monsanto will only allow one year of growth per seed supply. and other issues like declines in natural polinators. Food is really cheap if you know how to grow it. You can probably live off just the weeds in your lawn. Worse yet, diets are now internationalized, with lots of foreign products competing with canadian products. Fact is, sales are down due to competetion. so prices on goods being bought go up. All in all though these is a degree of price fixing. Edited October 21, 2013 by AlienB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 4% is still a doubling - and I'm wondering if dairy farmers are rockbed supporters of the Conservatives, or rather if they have been traditionally. The agriculture lobby is strong, and this seems to be a globalized thing too. I remember some Chinese friends of mine complaining about Korea's agro subsidies awhile back. Why wouldn't we just drop our tariffs ? Auguste, you sound like my 80s peacenik friends who wanted unilateral disarmament ! In other words, why not get something from the other guy if you're just going to give it up anyway ? The dairy quotas were said to be the thing that ended up making the deal happen. When compared to Canadian farmers, European farmers enjoy massive government subsidies while the cost of quota is a huge cost to Canadian dairy farmers even though it gives those with it a guaranteed market. The problem is, quota has become a commodity in itself and its cost has skyrocketed. How do you tell an independent dairy farmer that the million plus he borrowed to buy quota and play by the rules is now worthless because you just decided to change those rules. How could he compete with a new farmer coming in who would have no such financial burden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) 4% is still a doubling - and I'm wondering if dairy farmers are rockbed supporters of the Conservatives, or rather if they have been traditionally. Wow...who knew ? I always thought that Packers fans were the real cheesheads, but it turns out to be Canada instead. Who is consuming all this cheese and other dairy products for such stupid high prices ? In about one hour (Colts-Broncos halftime), I will be buying one U.S. gallon of 1% lacteal fluid from the female of a bovine species and it will cost a mere $2.68 U.S. It will not be taxed because it is food. I can't imagine paying two or three times as much. Edited October 21, 2013 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 It should be noted that the rBST synthetic growth hormone is widely used in US dairy herds to increase milk production and its use also causes a greater need for antibiotic use in dairy cattle. The use of rBST is banned in Canadian and EU herds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) We need food. We don't need all industry. essential vs. nonessential How do you define "essential"? For people on dialysis or who require insulin, electricity (among other things) is essential. ---- When I can buy the full panoply of world cheese at prices comparable to Canadian cheese, when Canadian grocery stores sell cheese in a single section instead of an "expensive" domestic and a "really expensive" foreign section - when I can buy a Skoda (great car, produced by VW) or a SEAT or Citroen - then I'll believe this European free-trade hype. So far, I don't see it. I'll wait for the details but I fear that this agreement is all PR. [To me, Harper's "best" move to free trade was the change to an $800 exemption for cross-border shopping. Whatta guy!] Edited October 23, 2013 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 It should be noted that the rBST synthetic growth hormone is widely used in US dairy herds to increase milk production and its use also causes a greater need for antibiotic use in dairy cattle. The use of rBST is banned in Canadian and EU herds. Label the milk/cheese if necessary. Wilber, about 50% of Canada's milk is produced in Quebec. Do you really believe that dairy farmers in the US or Europe are any more (or less) ethical than dairy farmers in Canada? I don't know whether your nationalism impresses me, or depresses me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I've never understood why we cater to certain farming groups the way we do when we cheerfully cut the throats of those employed in so many other industries destroyed by imports. Given the small numbers of producers involved, vs the huge number of consumers it beggars belief. By some accounts the prices of things like milk and cheese are twice as high in Canada because of these regulations. The huge number of consumers... In Canada today, because of the restrictions on dairy imports, milk is more expensive than Coca-Cola. There are poor Canadians, children in families, who don't drink milk or eat cheese because our supply management system subsidizes rich dairy farmers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Label the milk/cheese if necessary. Wilber, about 50% of Canada's milk is produced in Quebec. Do you really believe that dairy farmers in the US or Europe are any more (or less) ethical than dairy farmers in Canada? I don't know whether your nationalism impresses me, or depresses me. And the other 50% is produced outside Quebec. Just pointing out not all milk products are equal. rBST is also banned in Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Isreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 And the other 50% is produced outside Quebec. Just pointing out not all milk products are equal. rBST is also banned in Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Isreal. Will the Free Trade stop said practice among Canadian Dairy farmers? And as August said, could not the products with said hormone just be labelled, with Canadians, and in turn, the market deciding the consumption of said hormones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Will the Free Trade stop said practice among Canadian Dairy farmers? And as August said, could not the products with said hormone just be labelled, with Canadians, and in turn, the market deciding the consumption of said hormones? As they are banned in most places other than the US, we would not be able to export to those places. Those places didn't ban them because of protectionism, they did it because they believe they could be a health hazard to the animals and possibly humans. As mentioned, one of the effects of their use is a greater use of antibiotics and more antibiotics in the food supply is not a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 As they are banned in most places other than the US, we would not be able to export to those places. Those places didn't ban them because of protectionism, they did it because they believe they could be a health hazard to the animals and possibly humans. As mentioned, one of the effects of their use is a greater use of antibiotics and more antibiotics in the food supply is not a good thing. Why is that? As I asked, will the EU Free Trade deal require Canadian Dairy Farmers to start using these growth hormones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Why is that? As I asked, will the EU Free Trade deal require Canadian Dairy Farmers to start using these growth hormones? The opposite. As I said in my original post, they are banned in the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 The opposite. As I said in my original post, they are banned in the EU. And as you mentioned, they're banned from Canadian herds, so may I ask where your concern lays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 And as you mentioned, they're banned from Canadian herds, so may I ask where your concern lays? I'm not concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I'm not concerned. Fair enough, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitops Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Wow...who knew ? I always thought that Packers fans were the real cheesheads, but it turns out to be Canada instead. Who is consuming all this cheese and other dairy products for such stupid high prices ? In about one hour (Colts-Broncos halftime), I will be buying one U.S. gallon of 1% lacteal fluid from the female of a bovine species and it will cost a mere $2.68 U.S. It will not be taxed because it is food. I can't imagine paying two or three times as much. Ya that will be $4.79 CDN or more down at the local Safeway here. Edited October 23, 2013 by hitops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Well the media is ignoring it, must be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Most groceries aren't subject to GST/HST either. I was in the states recently and I must admit that gap has closed a fair bit. Sure alcohol and certain meats and fresh meats and produce are a lot less but other groceries are pretty close. You gotta remember everyone in Canada has Healthcare and the minimum wage is around $10/hour. So it's not a surprise the price is higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) Well the media is ignoring it, must be a good thing. Except the media are not, but you wouldnt look around to see that now would you? Edited October 25, 2013 by Guyser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 It should be noted that the rBST synthetic growth hormone is widely used in US dairy herds to increase milk production and its use also causes a greater need for antibiotic use in dairy cattle. The use of rBST is banned in Canadian and EU herds. True, however, I had found that they essentially genetically modify the anti-biotic/hormone into the feed. It's not the same one as you mention however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Except the media are not, but you wouldnt look around to see that now would you? Buried is it, it is certainly not out in front where it is easly found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) Buried is it, it is certainly not out in front where it is easly found. Ah, so now your saying they covered it but buried it? Next week it'll be what...?...way back in the dark pages on section 1 ? Goalposts...they go thataway -----------------> then they go ^ Edited October 25, 2013 by Guyser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.