Canada-EU Free Trade

[Michael Hardner]

Why is this essential topic not being talked about yet ?

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canada-eu-free-trade-agreement-announcement-expected-in-brussels-1.1502438

BRUSSELS, Belgium -- After four painstaking years of opaque negotiations, the lid will finally be peeled back Friday on Canada's contentious free trade negotiations with Europe.

Then, another potentially equally painful process begins -- selling the agreement to Canada's provinces and territories and as well as the 28 member countries of the European Union.

I realize the economy is a boring topic, but this agreement assert's Canada's economic independence and puts us in a trade agreement with Europe years ahead of the US. It seems to me that when the FTA was signed in the 80s, the NDP had indicated that a deal with Europe would have been preferred. Well, here we are.

Look for arguments that say this is a bad deal because "it costs Canadian jobs", as if any Free Trade deal would not cost some Canadian jobs, and qualitative arguments that are hard to assess.

[Guest Derek L]

Why is this essential topic not being talked about yet ?

Perhaps because an estimated "$12 Billion boost" to the Canadian economy and the "creation of about 80k jobs within Canada" is not as important to some as several hundred thousand dollars in wrongful expenses charged to Canadian taxpayers by a few within the Senate........

I realize the economy is a boring topic, but this agreement assert's Canada's economic independence and puts us in a trade agreement with Europe years ahead of the US. It seems to me that when the FTA was signed in the 80s, the NDP had indicated that a deal with Europe would have been preferred. Well, here we are.

I think the key point, from the linked article:

But the big prize for Canada, say government officials, is in the deal's potential and the sheer size and wealth of the European market -- 500 million people and an economy approaching $17 trillion -- that will now be available to Canadian manufacturers, entrepreneurs, investors, service providers and even professionals, such as engineers, under improved conditions and mostly duty-free.

In that this allows Canada unfettered access to another larger market, larger and in ways greater then the US market (Our current largest partner in trade), well engraining a sense of diversification within our economy……Do I think this will signal a move away from the United States? Of course not, Europe can’t compete with geography alone, but this will shed some of our dependence on the Americans.

Look for arguments that say this is a bad deal because "it costs Canadian jobs", as if any Free Trade deal would not cost some Canadian jobs, and qualitative arguments that are hard to assess.

To that, I’d ask how many Canadian jobs lost, versus how many Canadian jobs created………At the end of the day, could not a portion of the Dairy Farmers slaughter their herds for beef?

[GostHacked]

More free trade? We did not learn out lesson with the USA? What kind of jobs will this bring?

Also with the state of the EU and their own financial crisis, this is a good idea?

Edited October 18, 2013 by GostHacked

[eyeball]

I'll believe it when I see it.

And given I still have a hard time believing we live in a state of free trade here in North America...I'm not holding my breath.

[scribblet]

It's a great deal, a terrific achievement. Tariffs eliminated and wider marker for seafood, cheese and cattle, no more protectionism for the dairy cartels holding us hostage. A wider market with less reliance on the U.S. No doubt there are some downsides but over all it's a good deal for us, the consumers in the end.

Congratulations to PM Harper !

[Topaz]

In ALL Free-Trade there are winners and losers and and we don't have to worry about the winners but who are the losers? The small dairy farmers, cheesemakers, and even maybe, the taxpayers. There isn't anything about the cost of drugs and if Minisiter Fast caved in, this could cost 1-3 Billion more to Canadians and the province of Ontario is totally against the increases to drugs. Does anyone know or have info. on this?

[dre]

First of all this is not a deal yet. It has to be agreed to by nearly 30 EU countries and all of Canadas provinces and territories before it can be ratified.

Having said that most of it seems to make pretty good sense. There is however a couple of really bad things in this deal...

1. It extends patent protection for drugs by 2 years. This is a really bad development and will drive up the cost of healthcare... And doesnt seem to have anything to do with trade. I guess the pharmy industry lobbied well? This is a bit of a poison pill for both Europeans and Canadians.

2. It contains specific exclusions for healthcare and education that could permanently prevent these sectors from being opened up to competition. And with rampant protectionism increasing costs by 5-8% per year these are the two sectors where competition is most needed.

3. Our government has pledged to "compensate" industries and regions that are hurt by the deal. Seems to me theres no much difference between than and sponsoring industry through protectionism.

Then of course theres the fact that this whole thing is brought to us by our political and business classes, who have a habit of taking really good care of themselves, often at the expense of others. Mikes origional quote described negotiations as "opaque" and I tend to agree. One day we should give the idea of transparent, representitve government a shot! Its so crazy it just might work I think we oughtta have a national referendum on these types of agreements.

I would have liked to see added human portability in any deal, and provisions for the exchange of patients and students.

[GostHacked]

First of all this is not a deal yet. It has to be agreed to by nearly 30 EU countries and all of Canadas provinces and territories before it can be ratified.

Having said that most of it seems to make pretty good sense. There is however a couple of really bad things in this deal...

1. It extends patent protection for drugs by 2 years. This is a really bad development and will drive up the cost of healthcare... And doesnt seem to have anything to do with trade. I guess the pharmy industry lobbied well? This is a bit of a poison pill for both Europeans and Canadians.

I have seen attacks on generic low cost drugs saying they are a risk to people. Not like the name brand ones that have side effects including DEATH. I can see that driving up health care costs.

3. Our government has pledged to "compensate" industries and regions that are hurt by the deal. Seems to me theres no much difference between than and sponsoring industry through protectionism.

Bad businesses get all the breaks.

Then of course theres the fact that this whole thing is brought to us by our political and business classes, who have a habit of taking really good care of themselves, often at the expense of others. Mikes origional quote described negotiations as "opaque" and I tend to agree. One day we should give the idea of transparent, representitve government a shot! Its so crazy it just might work I think we oughtta have a national referendum on these types of agreements.

I can get behind that!!!

[dre]

NM LOL

Edited October 18, 2013 by dre

[Topaz]

So when all these "free-trade" deals with all the countries in this world are completed down the road, the results will be ALL the country's economics being connected,so will that mean if one or two fall, the rest will too?

[dre]

So when all these "free-trade" deals with all the countries in this world are completed down the road, the results will be ALL the country's economics being connected,so will that mean if one or two fall, the rest will too?

In theory most of this trade will stop before long anyways. Most of it is the result of imbalances in the cost of labor and those will be reduced over the next couple of decades. For obvious reasons it does not make a whole lot of sense to build widgets thousands of miles from where they will be used.

The "global" economy will transition back into the "local" economy.

[carepov]

In theory most of this trade will stop before long anyways. Most of it is the result of imbalances in the cost of labor and those will be reduced over the next couple of decades. For obvious reasons it does not make a whole lot of sense to build widgets thousands of miles from where they will be used.

The "global" economy will transition back into the "local" economy.

No, most trade is beneficial due to the advantages of specialization and economies of scale that typically far outweigh shipping costs.

The only thing left for local economies will be bricks, haircuts and strawberries.

[carepov]

So when all these "free-trade" deals with all the countries in this world are completed down the road, the results will be ALL the country's economics being connected,so will that mean if one or two fall, the rest will too?

Counties will be more inter-dependant. I see this as a good thing as it should reduce the chances of a major war.

[Michael Hardner]

I haven't had time to add to the discussion, but I'm enjoying reading the points of view on here.

Any other plusses/minuses that you can see ?

[dre]

No, most trade is beneficial due to the advantages of specialization and economies of scale that typically far outweigh shipping costs.

The only thing left for local economies will be bricks, haircuts and strawberries.

Like I said... take away the trade the results from labor imbalances and there isnt much besides natural resources. Once countries like China see wage growth beyond a certain point, all those industries that we offshored will come back. You cant really escape the economics of it. Productive capacity increases currency values, and the lack of it decreases them. The massive flow of goods from east to west with nothing but bits of paper going in the other direction is going to end.

If China didnt manipulate its currency most of that trade would have dried up already.

And this type of trade (labor/currency imbalance driven) accounts for the major of trade in goods besides natural resources.

[Bonam]

Labor costs in most of Europe are relatively similar to here, and even higher in some European countries. I don't think a free trade agreement with Europe is likely to cost many Canadian jobs. Trade agreements between countries with similar levels of advancement, regulation, and wages are generally mutually beneficial as they increase efficiency and allow greater specialization while not having the negative effects of outsourcing jobs, exploiting reduced labor/environmental standards, etc. For these reasons, I support FTAs with jurisdictions like the US, Europe, etc, while not necessarily supporting FTAs with developing nations.

[Guest Derek L]

Counties will be more inter-dependant. I see this as a good thing as it should reduce the chances of a major war.

That's not always so.......Nazi Germany's largest trading partner, pre-war, was France.........Imperial Japan relied upon energy and resources from the British Empire, Dutch East Indies and the United States etc

[GostHacked]

Counties will be more inter-dependant. I see this as a good thing as it should reduce the chances of a major war.

I am thinking you wont see another major war. Instead there are going to be uprisings like we saw in Greece when the financial crap hits the fan. This trade deal will give us some benefits from stable economies, and will cause us much grief from the struggling and failed economies in the EU. And the stability of the other countries could be dragged down by the failing countries.

Canada and the US are quite connected and their housing bubble did manage to affect things up in Canada. Even with the USA being the powerhouse they are, when things fail, and if countries are this integrated, you will see a cascading effect of failure.

Interdependence is good, as long as we are trading with viable stable economies with stable accountable governments.

[Topaz]

Export of more Canadian autos? What autos. GM is closing in 2016, so that doesn't leave much, I would think the US would benefit more from a deal like this. 80,000 new net jobs, ok where, when and why? Is this like the misssing 3.1 billion, well, we know its in there but we just don't know where. Are these jobs Canadian jobs for Canadians or foreign workers coming in because they can't find Canadian workers with the skill? Many, many questions and not many answers.

[CPCFTW]

Export of more Canadian autos? What autos. GM is closing in 2016, so that doesn't leave much, I would think the US would benefit more from a deal like this. 80,000 new net jobs, ok where, when and why? Is this like the misssing 3.1 billion, well, we know its in there but we just don't know where. Are these jobs Canadian jobs for Canadians or foreign workers coming in because they can't find Canadian workers with the skill? Many, many questions and not many answers.

If only companies could open manufacturing plants in Canada to export to the US... Oh wait they can. "Made in Canada" GM cars coming to the EU soon. All hail Harper.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

No, most trade is beneficial due to the advantages of specialization and economies of scale that typically far outweigh shipping costs.

The only thing left for local economies will be bricks, haircuts and strawberries.

3D printing will make almost anything easily made locally...

Even houses can be 3D printed... There are going to be very few 20th century jobs in the new economy.

[Guest]

3D printing will make almost anything easily made locally...

Tea, Earl Grey, hot.

[Guest]

Counties will be more inter-dependant. I see this as a good thing as it should reduce the chances of a major war.

Well, nuclear weapons have already done that. More importantly, we might get some decent cheese!

[carepov]

3D printing will make almost anything easily made locally...

Even houses can be 3D printed... There are going to be very few 20th century jobs in the new economy.

Yeah, maybe as soon as we see the "paperless offce". It's right around the corner!

[bleeding heart]

Yeah, maybe as soon as we see the "paperless offce". It's right around the corner!

Right, carepov, I'd forgotten....whatever happened to that little chimera?