How much are we too weep for Greyson and Loubani?

[eyeball]

Absolutely.

I guess my point is that any Canadian who does this is not the kind of Canadian this country needs.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all.

It appears what they're going through is Hell and that's very unfortunate.

I guess my question for discussion here is are we to contend that a Canadian citizenship should act as a Get out of Jail free card if people run a foul in a country that doesn't share our values in regards to justice?

You really suck at trying to impart your sense of objectivity in this case. Why the pretense?

In response to this new question (I think you clearly answered the original question in the thread title) absolutely it should.

I guess my point is that any Canadian who would pose such questions as these is probably more like the people Greyson and Loubani have run afoul of.

[gunrutz]

There are a lot of countries that dont have our standard of law or justice, Egypt would be one of many examples, they took an obvious risk in a place where due process doesn't meet our standards if it exists at all, why does anyone feel concerned about them? They chose, they lost.

[gunrutz]

I guess my point is that any Canadian who would pose such questions as these is probably more like the people Greyson and Loubani have run afoul of.

Well, of course you think that, the sky is painted with social justice rainbows and lolipops in your world, in our country you get a few years of jail time for drug smuggling, in others you risk death, i would suggest avaoiding those countries if you are into that sort of thing, same as violent protests in Egypt, not quite the same thing as say the G20 summit in Toronto. Welcome to reality.

[jacee]

It's legitimate for Canada to say 'Lay charges or release'.

That's all.

[carepov]

...why does anyone feel concerned about them?

They are human beings and they were tortured and have been living in brutal conditions.

Are you not concerned? Do you think that they got what they deserved?

[Black Dog]

There are a lot of countries that dont have our standard of law or justice, Egypt would be one of many examples, they took an obvious risk in a place where due process doesn't meet our standards if it exists at all, why does anyone feel concerned about them? They chose, they lost.

I guarantee if you got pulled over in Mexico and wound up rotting in a cell because some crooked cop doesn't like the size of the bribe you offer, you'd be crying for intervention from Foreign Affairs.

I think that's the point here isn't it. They weren't just innocent bystanders, they did have political motives and got caught up in it. Or so Egypt believes.

Why do their motives matter? If they were tourists would that change things?

I guess my question for discussion here is are we to contend that a Canadian citizenship should act as a Get out of Jail free card if people run a foul in a country that doesn't share our values in regards to justice?

Why wouldn't it be? What's the point of citizenship if it doesn't offer some measure of protection?

[Rue]

No, and due process should still be taken seriously everywhere, all the time.

That's interesting. The fact though is these two geniuses were selective in their concern. They have been openly supportive of Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt and Assad of Syria and Iran.

They had zero concerns when Iran put down student uprisings and killing and torturing these students. They were silent as to the injustices on Bahaiis. Not a peep as to what the Muslim Brotherhood was doing to its Coptic Christians or what the Sudanese are still doing to blacks in Southern Sudan.

No not these two champions of justice-they push their select button and decide to champion the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt.

These two champions were silent on Assad's massacres and police state and civil war. Not a peep about Hezbollah.

However these two geniuses whenever given the opportunity would spew out how bad the US and Israel were.

Right. These two peacocks decide they are going to go to Cairo in the middle of a civil war, flit about in favour of the Muslim Brotherhood and not get arrested? Then this pitter patter about what they were doing.

Give me a phacking break. What they were in Cairo to have tea. They went to protest in the streets on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood and here is the most glaring of ironies-both are openly gay-uh yah-geniuses-these twits really think the Muslim

Brotherhood wanted help from two leftist gay militants?

Really? Did they think they would be embraced by the Muslim Brotherhood?

What sheltered twits. Typical leftist phacktards. No clue of the people they think they can march with hand in hand. Fact is that Muslim Brotherhood would have stoned them to death given the chance. Idiots.

Do me a favour. You want to flip and flap and flop and strut yourself round the world like spoiled little know it alls thinking you are the great white bwana come to show the savages how to behave-go phack yourself.

These two bafoons had no business in Egypt. None. Zero.

They are nothing more than an updated version of missionaries fueled by a false sense of righteousness and elitism.

Eye get real. Due process? These baboons only complained when it was about Israel and the US and ignored injustice when it suited them.

They are not martyrs just sanctimonious arseholes.

Egypt will release these popinjays in due time and they will come back and you can rush to the airport and call them heroes.

In the meantime they can be embraced by the people they claim to champion in prison.

These arsecheeks will come back and become left wing millionaires making a movie and selling a book.

[Rue]

Why do their motives matter?

Lol how convenient. The motives don't suit you so you dismiss them.

Lol.

They went to Egypt to demonstrate on the streets in support of the Muslim Brotherhood and to film a propaganda film

in favour of the Muslim Brotherhood.

They are both open supporters of Hamas in Gaza, Assad's regime, the Hezbollah, Iran, and the dismantling of Israel using terrorism if need be and you say their motives are not important?

Lol. You are something. Ooopsy its not convenient to acknowledge their political views.

Why Black Dog-is that because they went to a country in the middle of a civil war to support the Muslim Brotherhood that had been remove from office? What they could just walk in and the seas would part for them?

You want to be openly gay and walk down a street in Cairo Black Dog and have the naïve notion that people will embrace you when you cheer along with the Muslim Brotherhood an organization that refers to gays as less than human?

Give it a rest Black Dog-you are as selective as these two fools who remained silent about due process and injustice unless it was a platform to piss on Israel or the US.

Say now Black Dog how about you go to Cairo and protest. See yah when you get back.

[jacee]

They went to Egypt to demonstrate on the streets in support of the Muslim Brotherhood and to film a propaganda film

in favour of the Muslim Brotherhood.

They are both open supporters of Hamas in Gaza, Assad's regime, the Hezbollah, Iran, and the dismantling of Israel using terrorism if need be ...

Link?

I do think they're naive.

I also think they should be charged or released.

Edited October 2, 2013 by jacee

[carepov]

Lol how convenient. The motives don't suit you so you dismiss them.

Lol.

They went to Egypt to demonstrate on the streets in support of the Muslim Brotherhood and to film a propaganda film

in favour of the Muslim Brotherhood.

They are both open supporters of Hamas in Gaza, Assad's regime, the Hezbollah, Iran, and the dismantling of Israel using terrorism if need be and you say their motives are not important?

Lol. You are something. Ooopsy its not convenient to acknowledge their political views.

Why Black Dog-is that because they went to a country in the middle of a civil war to support the Muslim Brotherhood that had been remove from office? What they could just walk in and the seas would part for them?

You want to be openly gay and walk down a street in Cairo Black Dog and have the naïve notion that people will embrace you when you cheer along with the Muslim Brotherhood an organization that refers to gays as less than human?

Give it a rest Black Dog-you are as selective as these two fools who remained silent about due process and injustice unless it was a platform to piss on Israel or the US.

Say now Black Dog how about you go to Cairo and protest. See yah when you get back.

Do you think that they got what they deserved?

They were totured and have been imprissoned in brutal conditions. They are human - none of the details you give above should matter.

They should be charged and given due process or released.

This is not selectivity, this is in fact the opposite - the universality of human rights.

[Black Dog]

Lol how convenient. The motives don't suit you so you dismiss them.

Lol.

They went to Egypt to demonstrate on the streets in support of the Muslim Brotherhood and to film a propaganda film

in favour of the Muslim Brotherhood.

They are both open supporters of Hamas in Gaza, Assad's regime, the Hezbollah, Iran, and the dismantling of Israel using terrorism if need be and you say their motives are not important?

Lol. You are something. Ooopsy its not convenient to acknowledge their political views.

Why Black Dog-is that because they went to a country in the middle of a civil war to support the Muslim Brotherhood that had been remove from office? What they could just walk in and the seas would part for them?

You want to be openly gay and walk down a street in Cairo Black Dog and have the naïve notion that people will embrace you when you cheer along with the Muslim Brotherhood an organization that refers to gays as less than human?

Give it a rest Black Dog-you are as selective as these two fools who remained silent about due process and injustice unless it was a platform to piss on Israel or the US.

Say now Black Dog how about you go to Cairo and protest. See yah when you get back.

So if someone disagrees with your views, you believe it's ok to let them be imprisoned and tortured. Good to know.

[Bob Macadoo]

So if someone disagrees with your views, you believe it's ok to let them be imprisoned and tortured. Good to know.

If you haven't got that gist from every Israel / Palestinian post made you haven't been paying attention.

[scribblet]

I don't think they got what they 'deserved', but when they entered Egypt as activists they must have known they were taking a chance attending the demonstration.

How could they not be totally unaware of what could happen if they went to a demonstration, demonstrations where 100s of people had allready been killed, even if it was just en route to help out Hamas.

[Rue]

Do you think that they got what they deserved?

They were totured and have been imprissoned in brutal conditions. They are human - none of the details you give above should matter.

They should be charged and given due process or released.

This is not selectivity, this is in fact the opposite - the universality of human rights.

As per Scriblett's comments.

Here's a hint because you sound like you are a vegetarian. If a cannibal asks you over for dinner, don't go.

However if I offer you a bagel and lox, don't worry.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Rue

[bud]

However if I offer you a bagel and lox, don't worry.

however, if it's bibi who is offering a bagel and lox, then you better not go.

[left_alberta]

I am shocked there's no high-profile examples of Christian missionaries getting caught in Muslim countries.

Actually, there was a case a few years back of South Korean Christian missionaries going to Afghanistan and getting kidnapped by the Taliban. The Korean government paid a fairly large ransom, even though the missionaries had been advised numerous times againsy going, to the point where the government had actually banned them from flying in directly.

Can't say I symapthized with those missionaries too much, since a) the government HAD warned them repeatedly, and even without the warning, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that handing out Bibles in Afghanistan 2007 was not a really bright idea.

In general, I don't think the government has much obligation to protect the rights of travellers who get into trouble overseas, if it's clear that they were breaking known laws in those countries. In the case of Greyson-Loubani, a mitigating factor might be the arbitrary nature of the situation they walked into: Egypt is in a state of political turmoil, and they might not have known that the military was going to react the way they did.

Not so much sympathy for those Greenpeace activists recently arrested in Russia, who were doing things that are illegal in almost every country, and should easily have foreseen the legal consequences of their actions.

http://tinyurl.com/2okc7d

[Boges]

http://m.thestar.com/#!/news/egypt-frees-jailed-canadians-tarek-loubani-and-john-greyson/aebf980fb9b387dc66213f1192f5db63

They've be released.

[bleeding heart]

That's good news.

[Rue]

You are welcome. I sent bagels and lox and a video of Miley Cyrus' album. That did he trick.

[jacee]

Not so much sympathy for those Greenpeace activists recently arrested in Russia, who were doing things that are illegal in almost every country, and should easily have foreseen the legal consequences of their actions.

Ghandi's protests were 'illegal'.

The American War of Independence was 'illegal'.

The French Revolution was 'illegal'.

The Farmers' Rebellion was 'illegal'.

etc etc etc

Every struggle against the tyranny and destruction of corporate profiteering is 'illegal'.

Should we just cease struggling against evil because evil is powerful enough to control 'the law'?

Sometimes laws need to be changed ... through protest, rebellion and revolution.

That's our civic duty.

Edited October 6, 2013 by jacee

[left_alberta]

Jacee:

Yes, but your argument could apply to anyone who goes to another country to break laws.

If a Canadian goes down to the US to help "pro-lifers" vandalize abortion clinics, gets arrested and charged, and people say the government shouldn't help him because his actions were illegal, are you going to reply: "Well, the French Revolution was illegal as well"?

And, even in cases where I support the illegal activities, the people undertaking them have to realize that they're on their own insofar as dealing with the consequences. If someone left England to help the French Revolution, that may be a justified cause, but it does not follow that the British government had an obligation to help him out if he gets arrested. Bascially, by leaving Britain and breaking laws in a foreign country, he put himself outside the protection of British law.

If you're gonna go overseas to support revolution, you had better hope that your side wins. Otherwise, you are rightly at the mercy of the government you were trying to overthrow.

Edited October 6, 2013 by left_alberta

[jacee]

If you're gonna go overseas to support revolution, you had better hope that your side wins. Otherwise, you are rightly at the mercy of the government you were trying to overthrow.

Obviously people protesting tyranny will often be punished, through 'legal' means or otherwise.

I may still feel "sympathy" for them and their cause, even if their actions are 'illegal'.

What's "legal" is defined by those in power, who may be a small group of vicious, greedy, corrupt sociopaths.

What's "legal" may not be what's 'right'.

[scribblet]

I guess the Canadian 'village' got it's two 'useful idiots' back...

[On Guard for Thee]

Ghandi's protests were 'illegal'.

The American War of Independence was 'illegal'.

The French Revolution was 'illegal'.

The Farmers' Rebellion was 'illegal'.

etc etc etc

Every struggle against the tyranny and destruction of corporate profiteering is 'illegal'.

Should we just cease struggling against evil because evil is powerful enough to control 'the law'?

Sometimes laws need to be changed ... through protest, rebellion and revolution.

That's our civic duty.

I think you have brought up some very good points. And the world is complicated. A lot of Americans got killed in Iraq fighting a war that was in fact illegal. I got shot in Afghanistan supporting the war effort of the US in a war that was legal. I'm not sure exactly what those guys were doing in Cairo but one was an ER doctor and the other a film maker. Doesn't sound like a terribly frightening pair to me and by the sounds of it they were trying to help out in a weird situation. Also sounds to me like there are a bunch of comments on this thing from a bunch of couch potatoes who have never left home. Sometimes the folks who go out and get stuff done have to take some risks.

[Bonam]

I would have thought the absence of due process in their case is enough to weep about. Justice is supposed to be blind not injustice.

It's Egypt. What due process? You expect due process in the middle of a revolution in a backward Muslim country? What planet are you from? When people travel to dangerous parts of the world or partake in dangerous activities, they accept the risks that come with doing so. Canada has very limited capabilities to affect change in farflung regions of the world that do not welcome our interference. We can, and should, ask for these guys back, as Canada should do what it can to help its citizens, but no extraordinary measures need be taken.

As for their political beliefs and the idiocy of going to make a film critical of Israel while walking right past far worse atrocities in Egypt... hopefully this episode will be a wakeup call to them, but that is unlikely, anti-Israel fanatics are anti-Israel fanatics.