WestCoastRunner Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Well be prepared for a jump in ticket prices. If you want live feed from a transoceanic flight it all has to be done by sattelite and tres expensive. And really to no effect. Who needs to know what happened for the first 8 hours or so of a flight? The crash occurs at the end obviously and the "black boxes" give you the last 2 hours worth, and that's all you need to sort out what happenned. I agree that the expense is probably exorbitant, and will not likely happen anytime soon. However, if we had live feeds from mh370 during the first 2 hours, imagine what other information we would have to solve that puzzle. It was during the first 2 hours that the flight went off course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Couldn't the data just be uploaded in packets every 30 minutes or so or in the event a disaster becomes imminent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 I agree that the expense is probably exorbitant, and will not likely happen anytime soon. However, if we had live feeds from mh370 during the first 2 hours, imagine what other information we would have to solve that puzzle. It was during the first 2 hours that the flight went off course. That is true. We could have images of what happenned on the flight deck that caused the course change etc. However I still hold to my theory that it was a major electrical fire that caused the course change (toward the nearest suitable runway) and then eventually the incapacitation of the crew et al. If that electrical fault also took out the camera feed, we may not be a whole lot closer to finding the ac than we are now, and again. with huge cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Couldn't the data just be uploaded in packets every 30 minutes or so or in the event a disaster becomes imminent? After 30 minutes when a problem is realized, fighter jets could be sent out to investigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 That is true. We could have images of what happenned on the flight deck that caused the course change etc. However I still hold to my theory that it was a major electrical fire that caused the course change (toward the nearest suitable runway) and then eventually the incapacitation of the crew et al. If that electrical fault also took out the camera feed, we may not be a whole lot closer to finding the ac than we are now, and again. with huge cost. maybe so. no easy answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Couldn't the data just be uploaded in packets every 30 minutes or so or in the event a disaster becomes imminent? It certainly could, although how would that imminent disaster trigger get pulled? For example you never know ahead of time a goose is going to be sucked into an engine and kill it (both the goose and the engine). When a plane does crash and the black boxes opened you have all the tech. data for the entire flight and the last 2 hours of whao said what to who in the cockpit including incoming and out goind radio xmissions. That usually is all that is neede to unravel the mystery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 It certainly could, although how would that imminent disaster trigger get pulled? For example you never know ahead of time a goose is going to be sucked into an engine and kill it (both the goose and the engine). When a plane does crash and the black boxes opened you have all the tech. data for the entire flight and the last 2 hours of whao said what to who in the cockpit including incoming and out goind radio xmissions. That usually is all that is neede to unravel the mystery. Except that wouldn't be enough to solve MH370. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 It certainly could, although how would that imminent disaster trigger get pulled? The moment the power supply from the plane is cut off an internal battery in the black box could send the record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 After 30 minutes when a problem is realized, fighter jets could be sent out to investigate. Very often in crashes the chain of events that lead to it happen rather quickly and a fighter jet wouldn't get there in time, nor would it be of much help. However, in this particular case where a plane flew for 7 or so hours without any comms. then you are absolutely right that a fighter jet should have been sent up to investigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 The moment the power supply from the plane is cut off an internal battery in the black box could send the record. That actually already exists. It's called the ACARS system and it is in fact what has given the only information searchers have to go on in this case. The ACARS "handshakes" every hour with a sat. to deliver info. In 370's case the system was somehow so compromised it could only give that handshake, but that's how they know it flew for a further 7 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 That actually already exists. It's called the ACARS system and it is in fact what has given the only information searchers have to go on in this case. The ACARS "handshakes" every hour with a sat. to deliver info. In 370's case the system was somehow so compromised it could only give that handshake, but that's how they know it flew for a further 7 hours. Lets hope they find something when search resumes in sept! Those poor families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Except that wouldn't be enough to solve MH370. It could. For instance if my theory is right then the radios may have gone dead due to electrical malfunction, the cockpit voice recorder should still function and provide the dialogue that would reveal what the pilots were dealing with. The FDR's would also clearly show the electrical faults, if in fact this is what occurred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Lets hope they find something when search resumes in sept! Those poor families. They are actually searching as we speak. Started in early Aug. and this time based on the Inmarsat data, not what the Malaysian government thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 It could. For instance if my theory is right then the radios may have gone dead due to electrical malfunction, the cockpit voice recorder should still function and provide the dialogue that would reveal what the pilots were dealing with. The FDR's would also clearly show the electrical faults, if in fact this is what occurred. But wouldn't it only show cockpit dialogue for the last 2 hours, in which case, these pilots would have long been unconcious or dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) That actually already exists. It's called the ACARS system and it is in fact what has given the only information searchers have to go on in this case. The ACARS "handshakes" every hour with a sat. to deliver info. In 370's case the system was somehow so compromised it could only give that handshake, but that's how they know it flew for a further 7 hours. Sounds like they just have to make the flight monitoring/recording system more robust if that's the case. We had similar problems with equipment failing in the rigorous environment on the working deck of a fishboat, in often crappy weather, salt-spray and there were often power supply issues with different boats. But beyond the technical issues the concerns surrounding privacy/secrecy still remain which is where this tangent diverted. They too can be overcome. For fishermen, pilots and dangerous cargo transporters, the solution is easy enough, people in authority simply make it a condition of employment. End of story. For people with authority over the public...there's the rub or so it seems but in Canada, a democracy, it's supposed to be us who sets the terms of employment for our authorities. Edited August 20, 2014 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Sounds like they just have to make the flight monitoring/recording system more robust if that's the case. We had similar problems with equipment failing in the rigorous environment on the working deck of a fishboat, in often crappy weather, salt-spray and there were often power supply issues with different boats. But beyond the technical issues the concerns surrounding privacy/secrecy still remain which is where this tangent diverted. They too can be overcome. For fishermen, pilots and dangerous cargo transporters, the solution is easy enough, people in authority simply make it a condition of employment. End of story. For people with authority over the public...there's the rub or so it seems but in Canada, a democracy, it's supposed to be us who sets the terms of employment for our authorities. They could and I think they will. I suspect what will eventually happen is the same info the FDR and the CVR record will be forwarded in real time via sat. Pilot's won't care. The real time camera, maybe not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 But wouldn't it only show cockpit dialogue for the last 2 hours, in which case, these pilots would have long been unconcious or dead. Actually there is more of a problem in this case, the voice recorders are on a 2 hour loop, so 2 hours after they pilots were dead their previous conversation would be recorded over and therefore lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Actually there is more of a problem in this case, the voice recorders are on a 2 hour loop, so 2 hours after they pilots were dead their previous conversation would be recorded over and therefore lost. The flight data recorders not the same, they just continue so you would have all that info (pwer settings, airspeed's, altitudes, etc) until the crash. You would also see the reason for engine failure was fuel starvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 They could and I think they will. I suspect what will eventually happen is the same info the FDR and the CVR record will be forwarded in real time via sat. Pilot's won't care. The real time camera, maybe not so much. The trick is to use a third party to randomly audit a certain percentage of the record. There will always be a few discrepancies between what is reported and what is recorded because people are only human. So you allow for a few and only ramp up the concern and penalties if the same discrepancies keep occurring or if they become more than a few. In my case if my audit score drops below 90% of a random audit of 10% of my records a deeper audit is performed, if things keep going downhill I'll be saddled with a human observer looking over my shoulder and if I just can't get it together I'll be taken to court and not allowed to go fishing. It's just that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 The trick is to use a third party to randomly audit a certain percentage of the record. There will always be a few discrepancies between what is reported and what is recorded because people are only human. So you allow for a few and only ramp up the concern and penalties if the same discrepancies keep occurring or if they become more than a few. In my case if my audit score drops below 90% of a random audit of 10% of my records a deeper audit is performed, if things keep going downhill I'll be saddled with a human observer looking over my shoulder and if I just can't get it together I'll be taken to court and not allowed to go fishing. It's just that simple. Commercial pilots by law have to requalify annually. Some companies require it twice a year. If you ain't cuttin' it, you ain't working. And they spend big money on recurrent training. I love going to the simulator even if it is on my tome off. It's fun and educational and it keeps the SMS going strong. I am amazed what I have been hearing about the rail system coming out of the TSB report on Lac Megantique. Seems like a way different Transport Canada that the one I am used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Transport Canada recertifies me and the boats and equipment I use every year too. Changes to the rail side feel phony and contrived and the result of the old adage, someone had to die before they were brought about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 About a year after the railway accident that caused the death of 47 residents of a small village in Quebec the Transportation Safety Board has tabled its report. It assigns blame to “lax government oversight, weak safety culture and the railway company." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tsb-releases-final-report-on-lac-megantic-rail-disaster/article20106828/ Are Canadian taxpayers, through the federal government, responsible for compensation to the survivors of this event? as it was started, this, your post, should have been left as a separate thread in the Federal Politics forum... given this post has to do with the fault/responsibility aspect... given the significant fault/responsibility that lies with Harper Conservatives and the gutting it did to Transport Canada in recent years: "Harper Conservatives cut Transport Canada’s rail safety division budget by 19 per cent from 2010 to 2014" this Transportation Safety Board report is in line with the prior (Oct-2013) Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (CCPA) study that pointed to corporate negligence and regulatory failure as root causes of the Lac-Mégantic disaster... where a flawed regulatory system and cost-cutting corporate behavior jeopardized public safety and the environment, with the chain of responsibility extending to the highest levels of corporate management and government policy-making. over the last 5 years, ~275,000 barrels of crude oil per day are now shipped by rail in Canada—up from almost none five years ago. In spite of that dramatic rise, Harper Conservtives cost cutting measures kept Transport Canada’s Dangerous Goods division budget at a paltry $13 million to cover all modes of transportation, not just rail... the division has only 35 inspectors, the equivalent of just one inspector for every 4,000 tank carloads of crude oil transported in 2013. Prior to the 2009 start of the oil-by-rail boom, there was one inspector for every 14 tank carloads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Budget cuts are always a good reason to not do your job properly. Just ask StatsCan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Budget cuts are always a good reason to not do your job properly. Just ask StatsCan! is that your pathetic cover for Harper Conservatives gutting Transport Canada's funding over the last 5 years? Is it your hyper-partisian position that the Harper Conservative government holds no responsibility... no accountability... in regards the Lac-Mégantic tragedy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) is that your pathetic cover for Harper Conservatives gutting Transport Canada's funding over the last 5 years? Is it your hyper-partisian position that the Harper Conservative government holds no responsibility... no accountability... in regards the Lac-Mégantic tragedy? I do find it convenient that anytime human error or negligence causes a disaster it's always a problem with funding. Transportation Minister Lisa Raitt says that the government will take the recommendations seriously. Also, quoting the Centre for Policy Alternatives draws about as much ire from me as if I quoted a Fraser Institute study to you. Edited August 20, 2014 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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