Egypt's Arab Spring 2.0

[GostHacked]

They don't have to have a good reason, they just need a reason. Of course it's a scare tactic. But it's not like anybody can get it to change. Regulating Oil Prices doesn't work either.

Or at least that's what I'm told.

I guess the only way to allow some regulation(!?) would be to have a competing oil market. Currently we only have one global oil market.

So now that the military has taken control and another coup seems to be in the works, what happens now to Egypt? Also with that can we expect a resurgence in other countries recently 'recovering' from the Arab Spring?

[Boges]

Also with that can we expect a resurgence in other countries recently 'recovering' from the Arab Spring?

That's what I want to know. It sets a pretty cruddy precedent that a democratically elected government, be it an Islamist government, can be overthrown by a loud crowd.

[GostHacked]

That's what I want to know. It sets a pretty cruddy precedent that a democratically elected government, be it an Islamist government, can be overthrown by a loud crowd.

The government was not that stable to begin with or did not have time to recover from the ousting of Mubarak.

[GostHacked]

Well that was quick. Morsi is gone. ..... going to be one to watch for the next couple weeks.

[Boges]

I think you have the makings for, if not a civil war, a big clash of ideals in this country, that could get very violent.

You think the MB will just lie down and let their guy get turfed like this?

How is the military deposing an elected official any different that what we see in other nations lead by militaristic dictators?

Apparently there's going to be another election. Can Morsi run again?

[GostHacked]

How is the military deposing an elected official any different that what we see in other nations lead by militaristic dictators?

The difference I see here is that when the military got Mubarek to leave, they held power untill the election where Morsi won and promptly handed power to the newly elected. Now that the people reject Morsi, the military seems to be helping the process again. The military looks to be siding with the people. That I think will help reduce the chances of something big going down. It's a strange thing but actually encouraging to me in a way.

And no the Muslim Brotherhood will not simply take this sitting down, but with the military overseeing things right now, that may reduce the chance of any retaliatory action.

[dre]

The difference I see here is that when the military got Mubarek to leave, they held power untill the election where Morsi won and promptly handed power to the newly elected. Now that the people reject Morsi, the military seems to be helping the process again. The military looks to be siding with the people. That I think will help reduce the chances of something big going down. It's a strange thing but actually encouraging to me in a way.

And no the Muslim Brotherhood will not simply take this sitting down, but with the military overseeing things right now, that may reduce the chance of any retaliatory action.

We have no idea whos side the "people" really are on. Morsy won the election with 53% of the vote. The number of protesters based on the accounts I have seen MIGHT represent 3-5% of the "people".

The fact that military can so casually remove a democratically elected president does not bode well for Egyptian democracy, and we have absolutely no idea if these protesters represent the "people" or not.

As long as the military can easily remove elected officials theres no such thing as democracy in Egypt at all. In a democracy elected officials are supposed to be removed by.... elections... not soldiers.

Edited July 3, 2013 by dre

[bush_cheney2004]

The fact that military can so casually remove a democratically elected president does not bode well for Egyptian democracy, and we have absolutely no idea if these protesters represent the "people" or not.

It's not hard...Canada did the same thing to Haiti in 2004.

[g_bambino]

Some of the reports on CBC are idicating the military is standing with the people. They did that before when Mubarek was outsed. Glad to see them standing with the people in both cases.

What does "the people" mean? Are those who voted for the present (or, is it now ex?) parliament and president not part of "the people"?

[g_bambino]

My thoughts too. Even though I still think the Muslim Brotherhood in control is a bad scenario for Egypt, as you say, he was democratically elected. What happens if they don't like the next elected leader, more riots and chaos.

Isn't that the Quebec way?

[dre]

The democratically elected president has now been arrested. Looks like the Arab Spring in Egypt accomplished absolutely nothing at all, and the place is still a military dictatorship like it always has been.

[jacee]

The democratically elected president has now been arrested. Looks like the Arab Spring in Egypt accomplished absolutely nothing at all, and the place is still a military dictatorship like it always has been.

If he's going in a direction he didn't get voted in for, then he needs to get dumped quickly. They think he's too focused on the Muslim Brothethood instead of all Egyptians.

The military and police support the people.

What a concept!

[-TSS-]

The president representing Muslim brotherhood has been ousted but it doesn't mean that the new regime is anti-Islam as it has been made to believe. In a country with 85% of the population being Muslims it is very likely that the army is also pro-Islam.

[Boges]

If he's going in a direction he didn't get voted in for, then he needs to get dumped quickly. They think he's too focused on the Muslim Brothethood instead of all Egyptians.

The military and police support the people.

What a concept!

No evidence that these protesters represent ALL Egyptians.

That would be like saying a protest like this "Stop Harper" foolishness is representation of All or even most Canadians.

In the US, no one would consider opining that the Tea Party represents Americans, even though they're very vocal opponents of the POTUS.

[Rue]

What's with the destabilization of countries in the mid-east? They lose their dictators and then are continually in turmoil or in Syria's case civil war.

Its a complex answer that deals necessarily with these factors:

1-that there is NO history of democractically elected politicians in the Middle East;

2-that the absence of 1 is caused by lack of any meaningful politically neutral institution that would cultivate and

support democracy;

3-further to 2 there is no separation between government officials, elected officials and the judiciary;

4-further to 2 and 3, there is no separation between religion (Islam) and the state.

As a result of 1-4, only military governments have been able to operate and what has happened in Syria and Egypt is not new, but has been going on for THOUSANDS of years consecutively,

Egypt has never had a democratically elected government. This last one was the closest thing but its people do not tolerate the notion of waiting

a fixed term with a government implementing unpopular opinions. They understand military administration not the concept of unpopular but democractically elected governments.

Further Morsi was not democratic. The first thing he did when elected was to try suspend and dismantle any organ he felt could challenge his opinions.

He in fact lied and threw out all the democratic institutions he promised to support and that is when his people turned on him.

Morsi shows the remarkable flaw so typical of politicians whose religion and politics is not separated-he began using the Koran to justify his suspending

of democracy and implementing intolerance.

That is no different then what Erdogan has done in Turkey and eventually he to will be thrown out by the military there.

Not one Middle East state other than Israel is capable of maintaining a democratically elected parliament. That is a fact.

Not one of these nations separates their judicial systems or religions from their political institutions.

All share a history of military dictatorships, use of Mukbarat agencies (political police modelled on the Gestapo) and are riddled with financial

corruption.

Have the Hudson Jones site talk to you about their vision of democracy and how it entails a Sharia Law state implemented by political police

and a religious council that do not allow freedom of speech or for that matter equal rights to women, gays, trade unionists, Jews, Christians, Bahaiis, Berbers, Druze, Kurds, Assyrians, Zoroastreans, Atheists, Buddists, political opposition, freedom of speech and the press.

Oh no wait, that site goes conveniently deaf when such matters are brought up. It suddenly goes conveniently deaf as to how Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and this is why its non Jews who he claims are discriminated against can own land, vote, express opposition, live at the highest standard of living of anyone outside Israel in the Middle East.

That this site will remain silent on lol.

By the way lest anyone believe I shrill for Israel, I will openly say it has its own issues with corrupt politicians. It has no shortage of them.

However as slow as the legal system is, it catches up with them.

[dre]

If he's going in a direction he didn't get voted in for, then he needs to get dumped quickly. They think he's too focused on the Muslim Brothethood instead of all Egyptians.

The military and police support the people.

What a concept!

Elections remove government in democracies not military coups.

And we have no idea if the protesters in Egypt really represent the will of the majority of people or not.

Edited July 4, 2013 by dre

[Michael Hardner]

And we have no idea if the protesters in Egypt really represent the will of the majority of people or not.

We do have a sense that they represent the opposition, which was in the minority after the last election.

[dre]

We do have a sense that they represent the opposition, which was in the minority after the last election.

Right... so what we have is protested by a very small minority, that probably represent a larger minority... being used as the reason for a military coup, and the arrest of an elected president.

And now that a democratically elected government has been removed (and its leader arrested), you can be pretty damn sure that you will see an even bigger wave of protests.

If the military wanted to play a constructive part it would have used its power to force early elections. That might get people used to the political process, instead of thinking the way to change governments is through protests, and a appeal to the military. Although even that would expose the truth that despite all the illusions and false trappings of democracy, Egypt is still a dictatorship whos real power lies with the military.

[guyser]

Elections remove government in democracies not military coups.

And we have no idea if the protesters in Egypt really represent the will of the majority of people or not.

While true, Morsi did get in democratically, but promptly made his presidency for life, threw out the constitution, removed any and all criticism . IOW he was emulating Mubarek who use to be pretty sane but as he aged he had less and less time for criticism and ruled heavily.

The army is the holder of demoracy there. And they did a good thing.

Democracy does not manifest itself overnight, ask Rumsfeld and Cheny that one. It takes hndreds of years if not thousands to firmly entrench deomocratic ideas.

The Magna Carta didnt help the serfs, but did the Barons of the time. With the passage of time, we had true democracy. Same thing hopefully happens there.

[g_bambino]

If he's going in a direction he didn't get voted in for, then he needs to get dumped quickly...

He would be dumped in an election in a proper democracy.

[Michael Hardner]

And now that a democratically elected government has been removed (and its leader arrested), you can be pretty damn sure that you will see an even bigger wave of protests.

The thing I picked up most from what you said was your bold prediction here. Let's see if it comes true.

[Boges]

We see from Libya and Syria what Islamists do when they feel slighted by their leaders.

[guyser]

He would be dumped in an election in a proper democracy.

....to get that part (bold) takes time.

[g_bambino]

....to get that part (bold) takes time.

It takes more than time. So, what else is being done? Another military coup certainly isn't a move in the right direction.

[guyser]

It takes more than time. So, what else is being done? Another military coup certainly isn't a move in the right direction.

Its the right move at this time.

They removed the guy who would be a dictator for quite some time, and in the process move more to the Islamist side.

That they removed him and let someone else, who by most accounts is a pretty good choice, be in power who will restore the constitution etc etc is a good thing.