Justin Trudeau Won't Abolish the Senate Because it Favours Quebec

[Boges]

See here. I don't know if two seats for each province is enough; I'm also not sure how to determine what the appropriate number of seats shoul be. But, I do think territories should not have the same number; the territories are not semi-sovereign bodies like the provinces.

Maybe the territories they used initially worked then when Canada wasn't a confederation of provinces with individual governments.

How can 20 not be enough when the US has 100? Then again the UK apparently has around 800 Lords, which is ridiculous.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Boges

[cybercoma]

I don't object, though, to all provinces having an equal number of seats.

Not sure how I feel about PEI having the same number of seats as Ontario. Regional balance should not necessarily be along provincial lines.

[Boges]

Not sure how I feel about PEI having the same number of seats as Ontario. Regional balance should not necessarily be along provincial lines.

How about Maritimes being it's own region but giving each Western Provinces their own regions? But then again Nova Scotia has bout the same population as Manitoba.

In the US you have Senators that represent 500,000 people and you have senators that represent 30 million plus. I reject the idea of regional representation like this, but that's how it's supposed to work.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Boges

[Smallc]

It works better in the US

When?

[Boges]

When?

That was out of context.

The way seats are arranged work better in the US. You have 50 states of varying populations that all get 2 seats with 6 year terms.

In Canada we have 5 nebulous regions, that don't make sense anymore, that make up multiple provinces that comes to around 100 seats but the Senators are appointed and can't be removed. They also don't really have a mandate to propose or pass laws. Seats can be vacated but can stay vacated and only filled when the PM finds someone in the region in question that deserves patronage.

Both could be done away with IMHO, but at least the American system has a set system that makes sense.

[g_bambino]

In Canada we have 5 nebulous regions, that don't make sense anymore....

Why don't they make sense? The only real anomoly is Newfoundland and Labrador having 6 seats all to itself; it should've simply been merged into the Maritime region in 1949.

Senators are appointed and can't be removed. They also don't really have a mandate to propose or pass laws. Seats can be vacated but can stay vacated and only filled when the PM finds someone in the region in question that deserves patronage.

Senators can be removed. Seats cannot stay vacated; filling them is a constitutional requirement. Senators have a mandate to propose and pass laws: they're parliamentarians. And there is nothing demanding patronage for appointment to the Senate; a number of senators have had no political affiliation with the prime minister who recommended their appointment.

Both could be done away with IMHO...

How? And what would be the consequences? No federation on Earth has a unicameral parliament, you know.

[ed.: +]

Edited May 27, 2013 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

Not sure how I feel about PEI having the same number of seats as Ontario.

I don't see any immediate problem with it. But, I'm not a stauch supporter, either. Any changes to how senators are selected might impact my ambivalence, though.

[Boges]

Why don't they make sense? The only real anomoly is Newfoundland and Labrador having 6 seats all to itself; it should've simply been merged into the Maritime region in 1949.

The West isn't some empty expanse of land where the government gives land away for you to settle there anymore. BC is far different from Alberta and Alberta is a lot different than Saskatchewan and Manitoba. A West region is a relic.

How? And what would be the consequences? No federation on Earth has a unicameral parliament, you know.

Each Province gets by fine without having two houses.

So do these countries, perhaps not federations but still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicameralism

Edited May 27, 2013 by Boges

[g_bambino]

The West isn't some empty expanse of land...

How many times does this have to be told to you: The Senate has nothing to do with populations.

Each Province gets by fine without having two houses.

Provinces aren't federated entities.

So do these countries, perhaps not federations but still

Yeah, not federations. Canada is.

-------------

Okay, I take it back: there are three federations with unicameral legislatures: Comoros, Micronesia, and Venezuela. The first two are countries with populations of 780,000 and 106,000 respectively; their one chamber parliaments have 33 and 14 members each. Not models for us to consider for Canada. Venezuela had a bicameral parliament until Chavez made it unicameral in 2000 and it looks like a mess: "It is... made up of a variable number of members, who are elected... partly by direct election in state-based voting districts and partly on a state-based party-list proportional representation system. The number of seats is not constant, each state and the Capital district elect three representatives plus the result of dividing the state population by 1.1% of the total population of the country."1

[ed.: +]

Edited May 27, 2013 by g_bambino

[Boges]

How many times does this have to be told to you: The Senate has nothing to do with populations.

I wasn't talking about populations

Why not just make Quebec and Ontario a Central Canadian Region? It covers about the same geographical area. I'd argue, other than language, Quebecers and Ontarians are far similar than people from Alberta and BC.

Provinces aren't federated entities.

Yeah, not federations. Canada is.

But since the Senate has no real mandate it's not like the Senate provides a check and balance for regions of the country that have lower populations.

If abolishing the Senate is unlikely or impractical I would suggest two things to reform it.

- Instead of regions, use each province and cut the seats down to 2 or 3 per province.

- Allow for a Senator to have some sort of legitimacy to the country other than simply the whim of the PM. If being elected isn't feasible perhaps an approval process by the house so at least actual representatives of the nation can have a say on who goes to the Senate or not.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Boges

[g_bambino]

I wasn't talking about populations

What did you mean by "not a vast empty space", then? Empty of what, if not people and their infrastructure?

Why not just make Quebec and Ontario a Central Canadian Region?

I don't know.

But since the Senate has no real mandate it's not like the Senate provides a check and balance for regions of the country that have lower populations.

You saying the Senate has no mandate doesn't deny it a mandate. It reviews bills passed through the House of Commons in a less partisan way with regional considerations in mind. If the senators representing a certain region can convince a majority of the other senators that proposed legislation will negatively affect their region, the Senate may send the bill back to the Commons with appropriate amendments (as it frequently does) or even block the bill altogether (as with the GST bill; though that is rare).

- Instead of regions, use each province and cut the seats down to 2 or 3 per province.

- Allow for a Senator to have some sort of legitimacy to the country other than simply the whim of the PM. If being elected isn't feasible perhaps an approval process by the house so at least actual representatives of the nation can have a say on who goes to the Senate or not

I've already expressed that I am ambivalent about the first suggestion. But, I don't quite understand the second. Are you proposing that the House of Commons choose senators? I think the selection process--and therefore the Senate--needs to be less political, not more.

[jbg]

Well, here you have it, the status quo for Trudeau, with 'improvements' wonder what kind of 'improvements'. I guess as long as they don't affect Quebec... hmmmm Guess he doesn't go for Equal and Elected...

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/26/justin-trudeau-wont-abolish-senate-as-it-benefits-quebec

I guess he's a Quebec politician masquerading as a Federal candidate and loyal Canadian.

[BubberMiley]

Masqueraders are usually good at spotting fellow masqueraders.

[Spiderfish]

This entire topic is a smokescreen by party hacks to hide from what has been happening with Duffy and the PMo corruption.

So any conversation involving the relevance of the senate is a smokescreen? Why would Justin want to hide the Duffy senate scandal and take the pressure off of the parties involved? Or is it just a smokescreen if Conservatives talk about changes to the senate?

Maybe JT should just do what he does best and keep quiet, probably be the best thing he could do for himself. It seems every time he offers his insight, he ends up having to 'clarify' his comments.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Spiderfish

[g_bambino]

I guess he's a Quebec politician masquerading as a Federal candidate and loyal Canadian.

I love how everyone reads the words as support for the perceived advantage. It's entirely possible he pointed out what he saw as an advantage for Quebec as a bad thing. Yes, I understand he was talking to a journalist from a Quebec newspaper, but that doesn't entirely negate the alternative interpretation of his words. If he did mean it in the latter way, that would make him rather courageous. If he meant it in the former, then, yes, it seems like pandering to an audience.

[BubberMiley]

I like how the CPCers react to their appointed senators being caught fraudulently and illegally at the trough by creating an out-of-context fury about Justin Trudeau not wanting to abolish the institution that their own corruption has tarnished. Their opinion of the "low information" voter really shows through.

[jbg]

Masqueraders are usually good at spotting fellow masqueraders.

Why the need for a personal attack?

[BubberMiley]

Why the need for a personal attack?

What personal attack? When you said Trudeau isn't a loyal Canadian? Or when I called you a masquerader? You've admitted that yourself. Hence, the pretend left-wing "Theresa Spence is my personal hero" persona. Edited May 28, 2013 by BubberMiley

[August1991]

Well, here you have it, the status quo for Trudeau, with 'improvements' wonder what kind of 'improvements'. I guess as long as they don't affect Quebec... hmmmm Guess he doesn't go for Equal and Elected...

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/26/justin-trudeau-wont-abolish-senate-as-it-benefits-quebec

The critical phrase in that quote is the use of "nous". With this phrasing, Trudeau Jnr identified himself with Quebec. (I was amazed when I heard it - and I think he paused, and retracted.)

-----

Between a guy who has no seats in Quebec (Canada's minority community) and a guy who identifies with the place but wants Canada to remain united, I wonder who suburban, immigrant voters in Ontario will choose?

In fairness, they also have a bearded politician who is a "socialist/leftist".

[since the Internet is crappy at sarcasm and subtlety... ]

Harper has no seats in Quebec. Justin Trudeau openly identified with Quebec despite being a fervent federalist. Maybe Mulcair will split the vote.

Edited May 29, 2013 by August1991

[jbg]

Harper has no seats in Quebec. Justin Trudeau openly identified with Quebec despite being a fervent federalist. Maybe Mulcair will split the vote.

Doesn't the CPC have four (4) Quebec ridings? I think you mean that the Quebec ridings are not necessary to his majority.

[cybercoma]

In fairness, they also have a bearded politician who is a "socialist/leftist".

Mulcair is a social democrat, not a socialist.

[Sandy MacNab]

Mulcair is a social democrat, not a socialist.

Actually, anyone in the NDP is more like a social disease.

[PIK]

You can tell justin has spent his carreer speaking to children by the way he speaks in the commons.

[The_Squid]

You can tell justin has spent his carreer speaking to children by the way he speaks in the commons.

Don't insult children like that... he now has to speak to the likes of Rob Anders...

[g_bambino]

You can tell justin has spent his carreer speaking to children by the way he speaks in the commons.

Well, he should thrive there, then.