RBC replaces Canadian staff with foreign workers

[August1991]

I believe there is a fundamental difference in having advancements in technology that replace jobs and the purposeful firing of Canadian workers to hire cheaper foreign workers, which in the end does not save RBC any money at all now with the iGate thing thrown in.

What is the difference between laying off a worker because an ATM can do the job, or laying off a worker because an Indian can do the job?

I suspect that RBC now knows that the only difference is in the PR release. Based on nationalism/superstition, (English) Canadians seem more willing to lose a job to a computer than to an Indian.

I am a English-Francophile-Canadian, I do not waste any of my time/energy thinking about banks and fees. Why do you ask?

I'm curious to know why everyone in (English) Canada is jumping on RBC. This is largely not an issue in French Canada. Edited April 15, 2013 by August1991

[August1991]

ATMs and robots serve multiple social and economic purposes. An ATM, as example, certainly cost some teller jobs, though probably not as many as people might think. There are still bank branches everywhere, and they seem to still have a lot of tellers.

An ATM is an example, Argus. The effects of technology are far more wide-spread. Consider, for example, the effects of the Internet on employment in newspapers and specifically classified ads. Or consider how the Internet has affected the job of real estate agent. How has email changed the post office?

Bringing in cheap foreign labour does not increase convenience or economic performance of society as a whole.

WTF? Almost no one in Canada now wastes their time making their own clothes. (A few years ago, this was common.) Most Canadians can now buy good quality, inexpensive shoes. (A few years ago, that was not the case. Good shoes were expensive, and a sign of wealth.)

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Argus, because of computers and foreign trade, Canadians are now free to spend time pursuing other activities - including chatting online.

=====

Once upon a time, people were afraid that machines/technology were bad and would impoverish workers. Such people were called Luddites. Nowadays, given cellphones and the Internet, most modern people instinctively understand that technology is good.

Yet, modern people fear foreign trade. I think that this modern fear is different. Today, some people believe that the world has a fixed amount of wealth/income. If Indians/Chinese get more, they must necessarily be taking it from us. This is zero-sum/nationalistic thinking.

I have tried to oppose this modern belief by equating technology with foreign trade since logically, they are the same.

Edited April 15, 2013 by August1991

[August1991]

Not of society as a whole, because now you have an extra 350,000 unproductive bodies.

WTF?

Do you think these "unproductive" bodies/people will get depressed, stay at home unemployed and watch daytime TV? Would you?

No, they look for what other people want, go to school if necessary, learn something and produce a new service.

Here's one example:

Argus, how many TV channels were available in, say, 1970? Nowadays, have you ever noticed how many channels cable makes available? Where did all these people come from to produce all that content?

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True, Barack Obama (and Stephen Harper) both seem to have far more assistants/agents/staffers whenever they do something or go somewhere than Kennedy (or Diefenbaker) ever did. (And all four have or had huge egos, so that's not the issue.) My bigger fear is that the Sovereign has discovered this gain in productivity, and is now taking a larger chunk for itself.

Edited April 15, 2013 by August1991

[GostHacked]

Are you saying that technology that eliminates jobs are the exception to the rule ?

No I am not. I am saying that there are exceptions to the rule in all cases.

[August1991]

No I am not. I am saying that there are exceptions to the rule in all cases.

According to studies that I have seen, about 80% of job losses in the US over the past 30 years were due to technological change; the other 20% were due to foreign trade.

Here's a link (very negative to my viewpoint) that nevertheless makes my point:

The big surprise, at least for believers in the classic liberal economic view that trade benefits both parties, is the strong and negative impact of globalization on U.S. workers. Prof. Autor estimates it accounts for 15 to 20 per cent of jobs lost.

G&M

Job losses to trade are about 15 to 20%, and losses to technology (something the G&M article leaves unmentioned) explain the other 80%.

[eyeball]

I have tried to oppose this modern belief by equating technology with foreign trade since logically, they are the same.

Here's a link (very negative to my viewpoint) that nevertheless makes my point:

The first point your link makes that shines above the rest is just how bizarre your thinking is on just about everything to do with issue.

The main point it makes with regards to this thread is...

​What is striking, and frightening, is the extent to which knee-jerk, populist fears that intellectuals tend to deride actually turned out to be true. “U.S.-China trade is almost a one-way street.

I notice the phrase hollowed out used a few times in the article, something we hear around Vancouver Island a lot these days with machine shops, boatyards, fuel docks, etc just shutting down as the industrial base simply evaporates under them. Hollowing out in our case has absolutely nothing to do with anything you've talked about at all. Here it has to do with homegrown institutional forces; the mismanagement of natural resources and ecosystems coupled with corporate lobbying to privatize and concentrate resources, like fish for example, into factory ships (some now being crewed with TFW's).

So, you are in a word or three, out - to - lunch. I have to say you're in some pretty good company though, you're certainly not the only one to mock or scoff at the suggestion that the government mostly caters to institutions and corporations and largely eschews communities of real human beings. You people seem to treat this aspect of what's so wrong in our economy like climate deniers treat AGW.

Edited April 15, 2013 by eyeball

[August1991]

The first point your link makes that shines above the rest is just how bizarre your thinking is on just about everything to do with issue.

eyeball, that link is to the G&M, and a lousy article at that. Once you drill through all the mindless, standard memes ("right-wing, conservative experts are wrong; globalisation will impoverish us"), you hit one critical statistic: about 15% of job losses are due to foreign trade.

Well, what explains the other 80% or so of job losses? The "journalist" leaves this question unanswered.

In fact, technology explains about 80% of most job losses.

Edited April 15, 2013 by August1991

[Bonam]

Job losses to trade are about 15 to 20%, and losses to technology (something the G&M article leaves unmentioned) explain the other 80%.

Your own article says:

The impact of technology is more familiar. The three researchers found that it did not create fewer jobs over all,

So no, going by the article, technology merely changes the nature of jobs. Some jobs disappear, others are created.

[Michael Hardner]

No I am not. I am saying that there are exceptions to the rule in all cases.

Agreed.

[PIK]

My view on all of this is that the Tories wanted to help out the business in the oil field in Alberta and so created the "temporary worker", btw, how long does one work under this? Anyway, I don't think they realized that the loopholes in this and businesses are taking advantage of the situation. So now we have about 2.1 million Canadians not working, they are letting in 250,000 people in the country yearly, so its any wonder we have high unemployment? How many people are on welfare? I know Conservatives have always favoured business, but these Tories have really gone over board against Canadians. Another item, if the RBC is bring in these workers to save money, then why are our service fees always going up? Do these people get to collect unemployment or do they just pay it?

How about your boy justin??? Looks like he was throwing his weight around,'' but my daddy ate there.''

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/2013/04/justin-trudeau-asks-for-temporary-foreign-worker-permits/

Edited April 19, 2013 by PIK

[Bonam]

More on this story:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/04/24/bc-inside-outsourcing.html?cmp=rss

As I suspected, there are no real savings to Canadian companies by outsourcing to these firms, who provide inflated prices an shoddy work. Again, as suspected, the reason for the outsourcing seems to be kickbacks and bonuses for top executives, despite poor results and high costs for Canadian companies.

[jacee]

Insiders say Canada 'scammed' by foreign worker industry: Claims include faked resumes, visa violations and discrimination against Canadians

...

The insiders claim there are bonus incentives for managers of Canadian companies that sign on, promises of big savings that cant be delivered and violations of work visa rules in the process.

They would push the banks to hire these people and to select them over other people that were genuinely more qualified, said a former bank insider.

There were kickbacks...certain bonuses that were flying back and forth between individuals who were in a hiring position.

A former employee of one of the multinationals said Canadian executives were dazzled by the sales pitches, promising workers who could do more for less.

Canadian workers are being sold out by cheapskate Canadian executives who don't appreciate the value of their workforce.

And the walls come tumbling down ... on them, I hope.

Maybe the message is getting through:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/story.html?id=8309978

OTTAWA The federal government was to unveil its budget implementation bill Monday afternoon, and has confirmed it will include details of how it plans to repair the beleaguered temporary foreign workers system that is supposed to fill jobs Canadians dont want.

Edited April 29, 2013 by jacee

[jacee]

Tories wake up and smell the coffee ...?

Federal government will close wage gap for temporary foreign workers

OTTAWA The federal government says it will drop the 15-per-cent wage differential for foreign workers introduced in the last budget and temporarily suspend a controversial fast-track process in a bid to fix Canadas ailing temporary foreign worker program.

Effective immediately, employers will have to pay temporary foreign workers at the same level as Canadian workers doing comparable work.

...

The purpose of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program is to help fill genuine and acute labour needs and we have been reviewing the program to ensure that goal is met and Canadian workers are never displaced.

Edited April 29, 2013 by jacee

[Canuckistani]

Predictably, labor has said this is just a bandaid (I think it will be too) while business is howling they'll all go broke. Good about the 15% differential, but what does it really mean? If Tim Horton's wants to pay minimum wage in a northern resource town where living costs are high, does that mean they should be able to import people because no Canadian will take the job? We should not be allowing temp work permits for any permanent jobs, only for seasonal ones. If the job requires specialized skills that can't be found in Canada, sponsor an immigrant for it. Otherwise allow wages and working conditions to rise until Canadians will take that job - we have lots of un and underemployed people.

[jacee]

...

Otherwise allow wages and working conditions to rise until Canadians will take that job - we have lots of un and underemployed people.

What a concept! Allow the market to regulate itself via (labour) supply and demand!

[Bonam]

Tories wake up and smell the coffee ...?

Yep, looks like it. Harper promised swift action when this story first broke and it looks like that statement is being made good on. In addition to getting rid of the 15% rule, other changes are also being made to the program to discourage abuse and to incentivize hiring Canadians first.

[jacee]

Yep, looks like it. Harper promised swift action when this story first broke and it looks like that statement is being made good on. In addition to getting rid of the 15% rule, other changes are also being made to the program to discourage abuse and to incentivize hiring Canadians first.

Mr. FixTheMessIMade to the rescue!

Ya gotta wonder ... If wages weren't the issue and there just were no Canadians to fill the jobs ... why would the gov initially allow employers to pay less to foreign temp workers?

It's such a scam.

And the Tories got caught.

The Alberta Federation of Labour said Monday that the program is being abused and employers are using it as a first choice instead of a last resort.

"Nowhere in the country is the situation more serious than in Alberta where clearly the temporary foreign worker program is being used to displace Canadians and to set off a race to the bottom in terms of wages and conditions," said Gil McGown, the group's president.

McGowan said at a news conference on Parliament Hill that the program is driving down wages and "giving employers an excuse to abdicate their responsibility to train the next generation of Canadians."

And that's a problem. Canadian employers aren't willing to invest in training Canadians - ie, doing it right. They're looking for quick and cheap solutions.

Edited April 30, 2013 by jacee

[Bonam]

Mr. FixTheMessIMade to the rescue!

Ya gotta wonder ... If wages weren't the issue and there just were no Canadians to fill the jobs ... why would the gov initially allow employers to pay less to foreign temp workers?

It's such a scam.

And the Tories got caught.

It's not the 15% exemption that motivated this particular fiasco by Canadian banks. They aren't hiring employees themselves at all, they are contracting their jobs out to Indian firms. And they were doing so because of bonuses and kickbacks, not because of any actual savings.

That being said, I completely agree the 15% rule was dumb when it was implemented, a very bad policy decision. And I'm glad it's now being revoked.

And that's a problem. Canadian employers aren't willing to invest in training Canadians - ie, doing it right. They're looking for quick and cheap solutions.

This clearly isn't the issue. The Canadian employers already had fully trained Canadians, doing the jobs that were needed, at labor costs at or below what the Indian companies were offering. The problem is with very poorly thought out executive compensation schemes as well as downright corruption in the form of kickbacks for giving work to certain Indian firms. Additionally the Indian firms, once they were responsible for a certain amount of IT work, were essentially able to hold Canadian companies hostage, after all, if a Canadian bank did something they didn't like (like not giving them more contracts), they could simply cut off the IT service and the bank would be screwed.

So the reality is a lot of really bad short-sighted/corrupt decisions were made by bank executives who got themselves into this mess. And now the whole program will be modified to fix/prevent the screwups of the bankers. Seems like society is always covering for the screwups of dumbass bankers these days.