RBC replaces Canadian staff with foreign workers

[Bonam]

Just saw this story on CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/04/05/bc-rbc-foreign-workers.html?cmp=rss

Basically, it seems RBC is using the temporary foreign workers program to replace existing employees. That is supposedly against the law, though I'm sure they've found some loopholes. Probably to do with the fact that they aren't actually hiring the foreign workers as new employees, but rather just getting service contracts from iGATE, a company that specializes in replacing personnel with foreign workers to learn the jobs, then later once they've learned them, bringing them back to India and having the client (RBC in this case) outsource the jobs to the overseas location.

One of the sad things is it's this kind of irresponsible behavior that will force government to keep making immigration paperwork more and more onerous and difficult until there's no way to immigrate without paying tens of thousands in lawyers fees to navigate through it all. Having just gone through America's immigration process with lawyer and filing fees over the years totaling upwards of $25k, such things tend to piss me off.

It also seems humiliating to be required to train your replacement prior to being laid off. I think I'd just quit before doing that.

[Moonlight Graham]

From OP article:

RBC said the work is being outsourced for cost savings and efficiency. “External suppliers with the right skills allow us to introduce new efficiencies, continually improve our service at reduced cost and reinvest in initiatives that enhance the client experience,” a statement from the bank read.

Well I've obviously heard of domestic jobs being shipped overseas to cheaper foreign workers, but it's pretty disturbing when companies like this are actually importing foreign workers to take over domestic jobs to increase profits. I'm glad there are already laws against this in place and RBC has been caught in the act. I'm sure this isn't the only company doing this. RBC, you suck.

[Bryan]

From the same story:

Human Resources and Skills Development Canada — the federal office that approved iGATE’s plans to bring in foreign workers — issued a statement late Saturday.

"We have recently learned of allegations that RBC could be replacing Canadian workers by contracting with iGate, which is filling some of the roles with temporary foreign workers. If true, this situation is unacceptable.

"The purpose of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program is to fill acute labour needs when Canadians are not available for the work required. It was never intended as a means to bring in temporary foreign workers in order to replace already-employed Canadian workers.

"I have instructed my department to work with Citizenship and Immigration Canada to determine the next steps."

Bold Mine.

RBC needs to be made an example of so that other companies won't even consider trying something like this again.

Some people are talking about an RBC boycott. I am an RBC customer, and I'm torn. If I withdraw my accounts from RBC, how does that help the local employees that I have a relationship with? Less customers is a reason for the bank to lay-off/replace even more of them.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Bryan

[Bonam]

From the same story:

Bold Mine.

RBC needs to be made an example of so that other companies won't even consider trying something like this again.

RBC, and iGATE too. This procedure is the entire business model of companies like iGATE. Exploit loopholes in work visa systems to bring in workers to a company in Canada/US/Europe, learn the jobs of existing workers at a client company, then get that company to ship said jobs to India where said workers will already be educated in how to do the jobs after being trained by the now layed off personnel. iGATE and similar companies have been doing this in the US for years now.

I think there's plenty of evidence that companies like iGATE do nothing but exploit legal loopholes to displace western workers. They should just be completely banned from any operations in Canada, period.

[jacee]

From the same story:

Bold Mine.

RBC needs to be made an example of so that other companies won't even consider trying something like this again.

Some people are talking about an RBC boycott. I am an RBC customer, and I'm torn. If I withdraw my accounts from RBC, how does that help the local employees that I have a relationship with? Less customers is a reason for the bank to lay-off/replace even more of them.

If lots of people move their accounts to credit unions, then they'll be hiring ... Canadians.

And as a shareholder/owner, you'll actually have a say in business decisions.

Edited April 7, 2013 by jacee

[Bonam]

If lots of people move their accounts to credit unions, then they'll be hiring ... Canadians.

And as a shareholder/owner, you'll actually have a say in business decisions.

Any proof that credit unions don't also contract out their services to companies like iGate?

[hitops]

I'm torn on this as well, but not about whether moving my cash out will help or hurt. I just wonder how upset we really should be getting. It's always interesting how we like to pretend we are some kind of great tolerant country that values diversity. But as soon as it comes to those bad brown people doing our jobs, the pitchforks come out. Pretty prejudiced actually.

Those people have dreams and goals in life as well, and they want jobs and security just like we do. What right do you have to a good job that somebody else is willing to do for less, just because you happened to have tumbled out of a uterus within the borders of Canada?

There is no question however, that if the law prohibits the replacing of Canadian workers, then they should be prosecuted under the law.

[hitops]

Ok I can't resist. From the financial post story on this:

"Despite posting healthy profits quarter after quarter, Canadian banks are under pressure to keep expenses in check as they face continued uncertainty in both the global and domestic economies and concerns about high household debt levels that could lead to defaults should low interest rates go up."

In other words, the pressure that has caused RBC to make these moves is directly related to the housing bubble created by the CMHC.

[Bonam]

I'm torn on this as well, but not about whether moving my cash out will help or hurt. I just wonder how upset we really should be getting. It's always interesting how we like to pretend we are some kind of great tolerant country that values diversity. But as soon as it comes to those bad brown people doing our jobs, the pitchforks come out. Pretty prejudiced actually.

This has nothing to do with racism or "bad brown people". A country's first responsibility is to its own citizens, that's all. The "you're a racist" defense of bad immigration policies is dead, long exposed for the fallacy that it is.

[hitops]

This has nothing to do with racism or "bad brown people". A country's first responsibility is to its own citizens, that's all. The "you're a racist" defense of bad immigration policies is dead, long exposed for the fallacy that it is.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I sure hope the people who are enraged are also totally against foreign aid and accepting refugees since those are costs of our society as well. They would have to be, to be consistent with the 'Canada first' position.

[Bonam]

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I sure hope the people who are enraged are also totally against foreign aid and accepting refugees since those are costs of our society as well. They would have to be, to be consistent with the 'Canada first' position.

Foreign aid and refugees are separate issues. Personally, I don't think we should be handing out any foreign aid (people that want to help those in need abroad can do so through charities). And as for refugees, this would depend on circumstances in my opinion. If a people are being subjected to genocide and some manage to flee to our shores, I wouldn't turn them away. But economic migrants gaming the refugee system should be cracked down on.

In trying to stay on topic, I'll just say that hopefully RBC and iGate feel severe repercussions for trying to exploit loopholes in Canada's temp worker laws, a move that will no doubt increase the regulatory and monetary burden on future legitimate foreign workers and the companies trying to sponsor them.

[Canuckistani]

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I sure hope the people who are enraged are also totally against foreign aid and accepting refugees since those are costs of our society as well. They would have to be, to be consistent with the 'Canada first' position.

That's a dump postion to take. Foreign aid build goodwill across the world and is meant to help people help themselves (tho it's often a boondoggle). Taking in genuine refugees is a humanitarian thing to do. I very much against massi immigration to Canada, but support us takign a good whack of genuine refugees. We don't help the rest of the world by collapsing our economy by outsourcing our middleclass jobs tho. Those "brown" workers will go back to India to do jobs formerly done here, except they may find not so many of them are needed as Canadians are put out of work and don't have the money to put the in bank in the first place. Outsourcing is our corporations cutting their own throats - just slowly. Lennin was right, we will sell them the rope with which they hang us, and we'll do ti even after they (the communists) are gone. Sell your grandmother capitalism contains the seeds to its own demise

[hitops]

Foreign aid and refugees are separate issues. Personally, I don't think we should be handing out any foreign aid (people that want to help those in need abroad can do so through charities). And as for refugees, this would depend on circumstances in my opinion. If a people are being subjected to genocide and some manage to flee to our shores, I wouldn't turn them away. But economic migrants gaming the refugee system should be cracked down on.

In trying to stay on topic, I'll just say that hopefully RBC and iGate feel severe repercussions for trying to exploit loopholes in Canada's temp worker laws, a move that will no doubt increase the regulatory and monetary burden on future legitimate foreign workers and the companies trying to sponsor them.

It seems like they might. I just checked out the RBC facebook page and it's 100% comments of shame, disgust and declarations of intent to close accounts.

However I still think there is a sense out there that for some reason, just being born here means I deserve a better shot at something than somebody from another country. I'm honestly not sure where the government should draw the line. There are highly competent people all over the world able to do things and work very hard. I'm sure why I'm entitled to the job just because my passport says Canada.

That's a dump postion to take. Foreign aid build goodwill across the world and is meant to help people help themselves (tho it's often a boondoggle). Taking in genuine refugees is a humanitarian thing to do. I very much against massi immigration to Canada, but support us takign a good whack of genuine refugees. We don't help the rest of the world by collapsing our economy by outsourcing our middleclass jobs tho. Those "brown" workers will go back to India to do jobs formerly done here, except they may find not so many of them are needed as Canadians are put out of work and don't have the money to put the in bank in the first place. Outsourcing is our corporations cutting their own throats - just slowly. Lennin was right, we will sell them the rope with which they hang us, and we'll do ti even after they (the communists) are gone. Sell your grandmother capitalism contains the seeds to its own demise

Odd to tell someone their position is dumb when you can't spell dumb. The world is changing and it's probably best not to stick our head in the sand and pretend it's still 1950.

Edited April 7, 2013 by hitops

[Michael Hardner]

If you read the article, they have been offshoring since 2005. These people are coming here to train, then will go back to India right ?

I don't think this is anything new. What I'm wondering is why people think some outsourcing is fair and others aren't fair. Nobody promised you a job for life in this world - entire industries are disappearing.

Do we want open trade or not ? We seem to - and when we opt into these treaties jobs are lost in some places, and gained in others. Can't we just admit that ?

[hitops]

If you read the article, they have been offshoring since 2005. These people are coming here to train, then will go back to India right ?

I don't think this is anything new. What I'm wondering is why people think some outsourcing is fair and others aren't fair. Nobody promised you a job for life in this world - entire industries are disappearing.

Do we want open trade or not ? We seem to - and when we opt into these treaties jobs are lost in some places, and gained in others. Can't we just admit that ?

Exactly, it's a schizophrenic position. We want the cheap stuff from India and China, but we don't want to contribute to employment there. I guarantee 100% of the people frothing over this buy 90-95% of their stuff from India and China. Well the other side of that trade coin is that not only are things cheaper there, jobs are too.

[Michael Hardner]

Exactly, it's a schizophrenic position. We want the cheap stuff from India and China, but we don't want to contribute to employment there. I guarantee 100% of the people frothing over this buy 90-95% of their stuff from India and China. Well the other side of that trade coin is that not only are things cheaper there, jobs are too.

I would add: 100% of the people who complain have IT services provided overseas today whether they know it or not.

[The_Squid]

No, we don't want open trade in labour. I like to be able to buy food and a house and a car by making a reasonable wage in Canada. Your "job for life" is a red herring. In Canada, we have laws against replacing workers with cheap foreign labour.

[GostHacked]

Time to find another bank to start doing business with.

If you read the article, they have been offshoring since 2005. These people are coming here to train, then will go back to India right ?

I don't think this is anything new. What I'm wondering is why people think some outsourcing is fair and others aren't fair. Nobody promised you a job for life in this world - entire industries are disappearing.

Do we want open trade or not ? We seem to - and when we opt into these treaties jobs are lost in some places, and gained in others. Can't we just admit that ?

I hope you have this same attitude if your job gets outsourced and you are training your replacement.

[Michael Hardner]

Time to find another bank to start doing business with.I hope you have this same attitude if your job gets outsourced and you are training your replacement.

Yes, my entire field was outsourced - as were thousands of Canadian of bank IT jobs. I didn't get a chance to meet my replacements.

For those who are just waking up to this phenomenon, they're pretty late to the party IMO.

[Canuckistani]

Time to find another bank to start doing business with.I hope you have this same attitude if your job gets outsourced and you are training your replacement.

I believe this has happened to Micheal, and he now has Stockholm syndrome where he thinks it's just peachy keen.

[The_Squid]

It's not even about outsourcing, which is perfectly legal. It's about breaking Canadian laws by bringing foreigners into Canada to replace Canadian workers already doing the job.

[Michael Hardner]

It's not even about outsourcing, which is perfectly legal. It's about breaking Canadian laws by bringing foreigners into Canada to replace Canadian workers already doing the job.

This:

RBC spokesperson Rina Cortese told Go Public several foreign workers from iGATE will be working in the bank’s Toronto offices until 2015. By then, she said, most of the work will be transferred abroad, but a few of the foreigners will remain indefinitely.

Sounds like a loophole for RBC - the temporary workers will be learning the ropes for 2 years until they go back home, with the work having moved to India.

[Michael Hardner]

I believe this has happened to Micheal, and he now has Stockholm syndrome where he thinks it's just peachy keen.

I think I learned that economic change brings catastrophic change to some, and that is part of freer trade. The government is there to aid the transition, but beyond that - sorry for your luck.

[GostHacked]

Yes, my entire field was outsourced - as were thousands of Canadian of bank IT jobs. I didn't get a chance to meet my replacements.

For those who are just waking up to this phenomenon, they're pretty late to the party IMO.

I've seen other sections of our IT group continually being outsourced, and some of it is in India. The list of my beefs with them are endless and doing any change or update to the systems when dealing with these people are super frustrating to say the least.

But that might also show the state that the bank is in, needing to outsource in order to save money. I don't think my money is safe there anymore.

But if you want to outsource go ahead, but buyer beware as you do get what you pay for.

[jacee]

Any proof that credit unions don't also contract out their services to companies like iGate?

Any proof they do?

It's unlikely that CU's are prepping to offshore their business, nor that members would approve it.