eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) That's hard to enforce though. They can offer less money and people will still apply. They can simply say that the people aren't qualified, and get immigrants to do it. There are always loopholes. The US limits the number of such Visas to prevent this type of behavior. I'm not sure what happens in Canada. The government apparently asks out-sourcing contractors, "How many visas was that again?" and faxes them off. Heck, it's probably easier than downloading boat drivin' and fishin' licences. Notice also how the US has fewer TFW's and more fishermen catching BC bound salmon than we do. It's uncanny. Edited April 12, 2013 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Michael Hardner Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 The government apparently asks out-sourcing contractors, "How many visas was that again?" and faxes them off. Heck, it's probably easier than downloading boat drivin' and sporty-fishin' licences from DFO.I'm not really surprised by that. What about my suggestion about going to the press - the latest controversy makes me think that you could get some interest in your case, and as I pointed out - you're still going so what is there to lose ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 He is also sorry that his bonus would have gone up from temp workers and offshoring. There is an "RBC Offshore Development Centre" in the iGATE facility in Bangalore. RBC I can't help but wonder about the revelation that wealthy Canadians have apparently been moving money offshore to evade taxes, to the tune of 7 billion a year by some accounts. Why should any of us believe that bank and government officials haven't have a hand up each other's ginches on this file too? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 I would definitely prefer if a Canadian was employed, but I don't bemoan an impoverished immigrant uprooting himself to earn a living in Canada. If the remedy being considered was to reduce incentives to remaining unemployed, then I'd probably care more.. Unfortunately that solution is politically unpalatable because of our society of pseudo-economists. Well, it sure looks like the solution of using government policies to artificially drive down wages instead of just letting the market decide is pretty unpalatable too, maybe even more so. This is not about impoverished immigrants it's about a deliberately tilted economic playing field, just as often as not towards powerful multi-national corporations that don't care who they exploit. I'm probably far more educated in economics and finance than most people on this message board, especially a fisherman. Not if you're educated like most economists to believe that the environment is external to our economy and that it doesn't need accounting for. That type of thinking is just flat out delusional. Do you know what natural capital is? A lot of our's is likewise squandered to the benefit of the sorts of huge companies now benefiting from government interference in the free market for labour. I really doubt if you know squat about economics myself. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 I am sorry about your situation. I just think that without TFW there would be more Canadians in similar or worse situations. I suppose a few wealthy Canadians would be worse off but I don't know how deliberately driving wages down benefits any ordinary Canadian anywhere. I don't know, maybe a commensurate cut in taxes would make it all go away. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Not commenting on your situation here, but this is highly subjective and seems open to abuse. Meanwhile back in Canada. When its actually a government employment office that tells you you're wasting your time applying to a local employer's advertisements because they are fake...I'd say who's been abused is a tad less subjective wouldn't you? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Michael Hardner Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Meanwhile back in Canada. When its actually a government employment office that tells you you're wasting your time applying to a local employer's advertisements because they are fake...I'd say who's been abused is a tad less subjective wouldn't you? That's what I'm saying. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 I'm not really surprised by that. What about my suggestion about going to the press - the latest controversy makes me think that you could get some interest in your case, and as I pointed out - you're still going so what is there to lose ? The case of fake job placement ads? That's my wife's but she's working in Alberta now. As for fishing...been there done that thanks. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Bonam Posted April 12, 2013 Author Report Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) More on this story: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/04/11/bc-igate-workers.html?cmp=rss A few points: - iGate workers are tightly controlled by their employer, randomly shipped overseas without notice and little recourse. Their family members in India are punished if the iGate workers don't abide by the terms of their contracts. - immigration lawyers have said that regardless of visa type, bringing in masses of workers to replace Canadians is illegal - RBC's "policy" has been that you can only hire a Canadian if an iGate worker cannot be supplied to do the job - iGate worker contracts forbid their workers from applying for Canadian permanent residency after having lived in Canada long enough to do so, in direct contradiction to Canadian immigration law - RBC managers with their identities undisclosed have stated that they often do not realize any savings at all as a result of this process, as the iGate contractors are still paid $60-70k, and have lower productivity due to needed to be newly trained and having their life dominated by the stress of when they might be randomly shipped back to India by iGate. With iGate charging 60-70k per worker (and pocketing a large % of that), the banks are not saving anything, since you can bet there are plenty of Canadians that would take (or keep) those jobs at those salary levels - all major Canadian banks are following the same practices, using firms like iGate, Infosys, Tata, and IBM India - PM Harper promises reforms in "very short order" To the folks in this thread like Michael trying to sweep this under the rug as just normal outsourcing, time to follow the story and realize what is actually being talked about here. A sophisticated international operation that takes Indian people with hopes of immigration to Canada, presses them into indentured service and keeps them there with threats against their family members and uses these workers to replace Western workers at prices that don't actually save Western companies any money, Now the question remains is why Canadian and American CEOs and executives are hiring the services of these companies. With the exorbitant costs being charged, providing no savings compared to hiring domestic employees, the bad political optics, and the risks associated with walking the line of immigration crime and immigration fraud, there must be a reason. Do companies like iGate pay off Canadian executives with cash, stock options, or enable ways for them to funnel cash offshore to tax havens? Do these companies blackmail Canadian executives into further self-defeating contracts by threatening to withdraw their existing workforce and cut services, causing their operations to collapse overnight? I think there's still a lot more to this story. Edited April 12, 2013 by Bonam Quote
Michael Hardner Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 To the folks in this thread like Michael trying to sweep this under the rug as just normal outsourcing, time to follow the story and realize what is actually being talked about here. A sophisticated international operation that takes Indian people with hopes of immigration to Canada, presses them into indentured service and keeps them there with threats against their family members and uses these workers to replace Western workers at prices that don't actually save Western companies any money,If these claims are true, then they need to be investigated but it's not fair to say that I'm sweeping this under the run when I'm merely pointing out that posters on this thread are anti-trade or anti-immigration in any case (which means that the details of this case doesn't really matter to them anyway) or that they don't understand the principles of economics at a basic level. I say at a basic level, because I have no training beyond Econ 101/102 and I'm called upon to explain some of these things.Now the question remains is why Canadian and American CEOs and executives are hiring the services of these companies.Well, clearly they're quite stupid and there are no benefits to this practice. Come on. This reminds me of the twin charges against GW Bush while he was president: that he was deviously evil and scheming... and that he was stupid. They're either clever and greedy, or they're stupid. If I had to pick on, I'll pick the former. I highly doubt that a practice that is as politically risky as this wouldn't result in any savings. Ok - here it is from your link: The workers Go Public spoke to said they were more highly skilled than average. iGATE paid them $63,000 per year while working in Canada and $12,000 for the same work in India.So, it seems the real cost savings goal is not go bring people into Canada so much as to send the work to India. Workers come from India all the time to 'train', to 'take meetings', in other words to take the work offshore. You yourself benefit from such agreements. Did you explain how your US employer shows that there really are no Americans available to work the job that you do in the US ? There are a lot of posts on this thread, so we may have crossed each other on this matter. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
carepov Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 I suppose a few wealthy Canadians would be worse off but I don't know how deliberately driving wages down benefits any ordinary Canadian anywhere. I don't know, maybe a commensurate cut in taxes would make it all go away. Who's wages are being driven down? http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=22 Quote
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 If these claims are true, then they need to be investigated but it's not fair to say that I'm sweeping this under the run when I'm merely pointing out that posters on this thread are anti-trade or anti-immigration in any case ...No poster her is against trade. No poster here is against immigration. You have constantly been putting words into everyone's mouth and twisting the majority of what people are saying here. You have asked people to clarify things and still you misconstrued and deflect. People do have a problem with the way trade is done. That does not mean anti-trade. People do have a problem with the way immigration is handled. That does not mean anti-immigration. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 No poster her is against trade. No poster here is against immigration. You have constantly been putting words into everyone's mouth and twisting the majority of what people are saying here. You have asked people to clarify things and still you misconstrued and deflect.I've already responded to that. If you're in favour of a form of trade that you admit doesn't exist, how am I twisting things ? Ok - I'll concede: I'll state that posters on here are not in favour of any existing real world trade agreements. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Bonam Posted April 12, 2013 Author Report Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) If these claims are true, then they need to be investigated but it's not fair to say that I'm sweeping this under the run when I'm merely pointing out that posters on this thread are anti-trade or anti-immigration in any case (which means that the details of this case doesn't really matter to them anyway) or that they don't understand the principles of economics at a basic level. I say at a basic level, because I have no training beyond Econ 101/102 and I'm called upon to explain some of these things.Well, clearly they're quite stupid and there are no benefits to this practice. Come on. This reminds me of the twin charges against GW Bush while he was president: that he was deviously evil and scheming... and that he was stupid. The details of this case do matter. Companies have been outsourcing for years, decades, as you yourself point out. People know that. This situation is different from the usual outsourcing, hence the heavy coverage and negative reaction. Second, no one "calls upon you" to explain basic economics, but only to defend your position. Third, you've yet to explain how any of this is related to the "trade agreements" that you refer to, since no trade agreement between Canada and India requires Canada to allow this. They're either clever and greedy, or they're stupid. If I had to pick on, I'll pick the former. I highly doubt that a practice that is as politically risky as this wouldn't result in any savings. Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple stupidity. Ok - here it is from your link:So, it seems the real cost savings goal is not go bring people into Canada so much as to send the work to India. Workers come from India all the time to 'train', to 'take meetings', in other words to take the work offshore. No. Reread it in more detail. iGate pays the workers $63k in the US and $12k in India. RBC pays iGate the same amount per contract worker ($69600 for a "mid-level worker") regardless of their location, in fact RBC admits it does not even keep track of the location (Canada or India) of iGate workers. It is iGate that gets the savings when the worker goes to India, not RBC. You yourself benefit from such agreements. Did you explain how your US employer shows that there really are no Americans available to work the job that you do in the US ? There are a lot of posts on this thread, so we may have crossed each other on this matter. Yes, I did. Did you explain which trade agreement requires Canada to allow this specific practice? There are a lot of posts on this thread, but I'm quite certain you have specifically not answered this question so far. Edited April 12, 2013 by Bonam Quote
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Who's wages are being driven down? http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=22 Yep, that sure looks like a tilted playing field to me alright. Edited April 12, 2013 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
carepov Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Yep, that sure a tilted playing field to me alright. Earlier you said that wages are being driven down, the data contradicts your statement - it looks like wages are going up for the top 80% and flat for the bottom 20%. What do you mean by "tilted playing field"? Other posters have suggested problems with increased poverty in Canada, the data suggests otherwise: http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=23 Quote
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 What do you mean by "tilted playing field"? Give it up carepov, you're just not that stupid. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 I've already responded to that. If you're in favour of a form of trade that you admit doesn't exist, how am I twisting things ?So because I am in favour of a type of trade agreements that do not seem to exist, in your head, means that I do not support trade? That is a prime example of twisting things.Ok - I'll concede: I'll state that posters on here are not in favour of any existing real world trade agreements.That is more accurate, but not completely accurate. Some here are not in favour of existing trade agreements if there is no equal value in return. How many times does this need to be said? I don't get why you are so confused on this here. Quote
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 iGate pays the workers $63k in the US and $12k in India. RBC pays iGate the same amount per contract worker ($69600 for a "mid-level worker") regardless of their location, in fact RBC admits it does not even keep track of the location (Canada or India) of iGate workers. It is iGate that gets the savings when the worker goes to India, not RBC.So it seems that this iGate company needs to be investigated and taken to task. Someone is getting taken for a ride. Quote
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Earlier you said that wages are being driven down, the data contradicts your statement - it looks like wages are going up for the top 80% and flat for the bottom 20%. What do you mean by "tilted playing field"? Other posters have suggested problems with increased poverty in Canada, the data suggests otherwise: http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=23 The source of your data (that would be the field tilters) also swear up and down there's been no inflation eating away at people's wages. Figures lie and liars figure. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
GostHacked Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) More on this iGate crap. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/04/11/bc-igate-workers.html Two IT contractors from India who worked at RBC in Toronto said their lives were tightly controlled by their multinational employer, while they took over the jobs of Canadian bank workers. "They have a rotation policy, and they make sure you don’t get settled here," said one of the ex-iGATE employees. “You are always threatened that at any time you will be sent back [to India]." The men, who now have permanent resident status in Canada and new jobs, spoke to the CBC's Go Public under the condition they would not be identified. Go Public first broke the story Saturday of dozens of employees at RBC who were losing their jobs to temporary foreign workers. This is human trafficking. This is not providing a benefit to Indians who want to work either here or back in India., This is treating them like slave labour. Not only are the locals getting shafted, the workers from abroad are getting shafted as well. Someone said something about global work force?? How about a global slave force instead!? Edited April 12, 2013 by GostHacked Quote
carepov Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 Give it up carepov, you're just not that stupid. Oh yes I am!! The proof is that here I am trying to have a fact-based rational discussion with you. Quote
carepov Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) The source of your data (that would be the field tilters) also swear up and down there's been no inflation eating away at people's wages. The figures are adjusted for inflation. Here are some more facts supporting my claim that overall Canadians are better off now than in the past: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/06/f-food-prices.html Figures lie and liars figure. Why don't you (or someone else) show me some data supporting any one of these claims: -TFW are resulting in net job losses in Canada -Poverty is increasing in Canada -Wages are decreasing in Canada -Life satisfaction or quality of life is decreasing in Canada -The "Canadian field" is more tilted now than it was in the past Feel free to use sources like the Council for Canadians or other similar groups. Edited April 12, 2013 by carepov Quote
eyeball Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) I have the evidence of a wasted economy and environment, and a community of human beings now on economic diaspora who knew 30 years or more ago that too much was being harvested too fast and that we'd all be out of work if we didn't do something about it. Government managers and industry lobbyists said screw that, put the pedal to the metal. And to add insult to injury, they privatized and concentrated ownership and access to what little was left...for ease of management and to adapt to emerging global realities they explained...with a bunch of graphs and charts as I recall. I've seen zero evidence that suggests government managers and industry lobbyists still aren't trying to push that pedal right through the floor boards. Oh and I almost forgot the resorts employing TFW's. I guess they can't find the highly skilled servers and chambermaids that today's high tech resorts need to survive...at 15% less than what a resident might expect. Edited April 12, 2013 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Canuckistani Posted April 12, 2013 Report Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Abstract Temporary foreign worker programs are typically seen as short-term solutions to shortages of regional or occupational labor. During the past decade, Canadian regions experienced unequal economic growth and some suffered from significant excess labor demand. The Canadian temporary foreign worker program was thus expanded and conditions to access it made easier. During the same period, wide regional discrepancies in unemployment rates persisted. This paper shows that some of the persistence is due to the increased availability of temporary foreign workers. This suggests that policy makers did not price them correctly to avoid adverse effects on the Canadian labor market. http://www.sfu.ca/~schmitt/cpp_paper.pdf RBC was clearly not suffering from a labour shortage. It already has Canadians doing the jobs in question. Many other Canadian residents are looking for work. Statistics Canada classifies 1.4 million workers as unemployed, almost six for every unfilled job in the country. Even the provinces supposedly suffering from the worst labour shortages – Alberta and Saskatchewan – have two unemployed workers per available job. The existence of vacancies does not indicate a labour shortage. At any given point in time, some jobs will be vacant because of turnover. Statistics Canada reports a job vacancy rate of only 1.5 per cent nationally and of no more than 3 per cent in any province. The federal government’s own Department of Human Resources and Skills Development recently concluded, “With limited incidence of imbalances between labour demand and supply in recent years, and with the projections showing similar levels of job openings and job seekers for each broad skill level, no major imbalances by skill level are projected over the next decade.” http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/its-not-just-rbc-the-foreign-worker-program-needs-reining-in/article10932004/?service=mobile Edited April 12, 2013 by Canuckistani Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.