Teachers Should Be Paid More

cybercoma · February 18, 2013

I sure hope socialist can find a job. From what I understand, the aging population means there's a ton of teachers and not a lot of positions to be filled. Good luck!

Muddy · February 18, 2013

I was at a parents night,I think it was grade one or two. On the wall displayd proudly were little stories. All were marked with 4 stars and different comments how wonderful they had done. The fact that they were incomprehensible and spelling was awful didn`t seem to matter about the glory that was being lavished on the little charges. The teacher and the principal came along and I inquired why were the kids were being told they did so well ?

I was told that it was the content of the story that was important.

I then asked a very simple question that I thought might be enlightening for myself. If the spelling does not matter at this age when do you try and correct it ? The answer ,was when they are ready. When is that I replyied ? Grade three,four, five ? When does content count ? When does spelling count ? Because it has been my experience that when you tell a human beings,and children are human beings , that they are doing everything just Jim Dandy and then tell them later they are doing it wrong you get a lot of confusion and anger .Well I guess my questions were very hard to answer. The Principal had a melt down. She screamed at me that I just want to educate the kids and not look after their little egos and their social life ! Your right said I. I can teach them how to behave in polite society and what is and is not right. I pay you to produce a scholar.

Well off they went in a great huff ! I took my son who attended the school and as it is with some parents who were denyed a formal education, I am a stickler about educating my children, I took my boy and put him in private school.

Best thing I ever did for him. Bloody tough on the bank account.

On another occasion with another son who was in High School ,came home beat up all to hell. He was a wee Lad at the time ,about 90 lbs. soaking wet and about 5.2.

I took him to the Principal the next day. Apparently the kid who layed on the beating was the school tough guy who weighted close to two hundred and was about six foot. He was brought to the office and the Principal declared that it takes two to have a fight and to shake hands.

Thats it I declared ! Yes was the reply. Now this punk had 40 lbs on me but I told him straight up and in his face if he layed his hands on my kid again I would beat him to a pulp soon as he left school grounds. The Principal was shocked. I turned on him and told him I knew a little about punch ups,but this was not a punch up between equals. This was an assault ! He had abdicated his responsibilty. Making an assault victim shake hands with his tormentor.

I have seen teachers pass kids on from grade eight to High School who were not ready scholastically or socially because failure would hurt their egos ,blah ,blah. Of course the child dropped out in grade nine. Failure is part of life. It is as important to learn to fail as it is to succeed!

I have encountered teachers in class rooms with political buttons on. I have gotten reports from my kids about teachers lecturing about politics in the in the class room with only one view. They were not teaching ,they were indoctrinating. I went to the school and asked if I could go into class and teach an alternative view. I was denyed,I was not a teacher. Yet in other schools as a veteran I was always welcome to speak on Remembrance Day

Michael Hardner · February 18, 2013

You have a long list of complaints, some of which are valid and some not IMO. Also, your own spelling isn't great.

My advice is to keep advocating on behalf of your values - there will always be people listening to make sure that the programs aren't entirely done on the basis of one viewpoint. As someone who hires people, though, I do feel that well socialized young people are a boon to the business world today. We have teams of people who come out of school ready to work together - very few problems compared to decades ago IMO.

Mighty AC · February 18, 2013

In the past the education system essentially spewed information at students and tested what stuck. Rote memorization techniques were prominent collaboration was limited and lesson differentiation to meet a specific needs was almost nonexistent. We've learned that there are much better ways to teach and changes in society and technology have forced a shift in what we teach. Spending time to memorize facts and figures is a waste in a world where information is accessible instantly. However, not all information sources are created equally. Today students are learning how to identify problems, access information and use critical thinking skills to evaluate it.

Going forward there will be a diminishing focus on grades and increased attention paid to concept mastery. Think of high school education in the old days. A unit was taught, tested and the entire class moved on to the next. Despite the fact that unit 2 required skills taught in the previous unit, every student was expected to move on. Imagine learning to ski in this fashion. Students who haven't yet mastered turning and stopping are being nudged down black diamond slopes while others ready for moguls are wasting time on the snowplow. Classrooms are becoming more student centered allowing lessons and the pacing to be tailored to individual needs. Those fighting change likely just haven't been made aware of the big picture.

westguy · February 18, 2013

cybercoma- as long a ssocialist ia not hirws in Alberta

cybercoma · February 19, 2013

What you did there... I see it.

Muddy · February 19, 2013

You have a long list of complaints, some of which are valid and some not IMO. Also, your own spelling isn't great.

My advice is to keep advocating on behalf of your values - there will always be people listening to make sure that the programs aren't entirely done on the basis of one viewpoint. As someone who hires people, though, I do feel that well socialized young people are a boon to the business world today. We have teams of people who come out of school ready to work together - very few problems compared to decades ago IMO.

I thank you Michael ,for reading my post. And of course for your constructive criticism of my spelling. I admit I wrote the blurb in great haste as I had pressing business to attend to. Of course that should not be an excuse. Unfortunately you have caught me out. I am pretty well self educated because I left school at an early age. Mind you I was given some tools from the dedicated educaters that inabled me to progress on my own and to have a wonderful productive life. Mean while I do believe teachers are over paid today and that the Unions have brought about the disrespet the teachers get from society at large.

Unlike teachers,if you and I each build widgits, yours being widget " A " and mine being widget " B " and your widget is better built and does the job properly over my widget ,widget " B " will disappear. As it should ! Unfortunately in a public school system ,with Unions protecting widget " B " or teacher " B" they are allowed to prosper . Keep their jobs and still put out a lousey product. Long live widget "A "s although they are blended in with all those Union built incompetent widget " B " s. Education should be a calling ! Not a Union job !

While I am on a rant ,I have to bring up the dress and deportment of teachers who dress and act like their charges. In any job discription ,one should dress and act the part they play.

Thanks again for listening .

Michael Hardner · February 19, 2013

I thank you Michael ,for reading my post. And of course for your constructive criticism of my spelling. I admit I wrote the blurb in great haste as I had pressing business to attend to.

Not to worry. I made sure to commend your post first, as I do think spelling is of secondary importance. However, since you yourself brought up poor spelling as a sign of decline, I felt it necessary to point out.

Unfortunately in a public school system ,with Unions protecting widget " B " or teacher " B" they are allowed to prosper . Keep their jobs and still put out a lousey product. Long live widget "A "s although they are blended in with all those Union built incompetent widget " B " s. Education should be a calling ! Not a Union job !

The thing is - there's nothing in the current system that *should* prevent widget A from being redesigned. Of course, we're talking about people and services here, so the "widget" analogy does not apply - but people shouldn't mistake a system that is not being used properly with one that doesn't work at all. If those were the same thing, then democracy itself would be one of the first things we'd be talking about discarding.

Boges · February 19, 2013

Rote memorization techniques were prominent collaboration was limited and lesson differentiation to meet a specific needs was almost nonexistent. We've learned that there are much better ways to teach and changes in society and technology have forced a shift

Really? If you had a doctor or lawyer that didn't have the ability to memorize laws or symptoms because they could easily google them would you be confident in their ability to do their job.

Rote Memory is important. Having the ability to access information instantly is convenient and it allows people to learn things but it shouldn't replace one's ability to memorize important facts.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Boges

Muddy · February 19, 2013

Michael ,it is a pleasure to have polite discourse with someone whom one may have a different opinion with. From your previous post I believe you said you were responsible for hiring. I too hired people in my business and I also was ultimately responsible for making a pay roll each week.Paying overhead and of course to make enough profit. It concerned me that some people did not realize what it took to make their pay cheque possible. It appears that many young people could do my job better than I. I know that for a fact because they told me so often .

After all they could guess at what my costs were to create the widget. Unfortunately thats as far as their business acumen went.

But here is a true story that I experienced when a young man entered my busines domain.

He approached me and asked if I had a job. Well of course I do have a job and infomed him so and asked why he wanted to know ? No ! No ! A job for me he said ! After some thought I said yes,I was looking for some one to do repairs. How much do you pay he asked ? Now thats not a great start for this young fellow as you can imagine. So I asked him how much he was expecting ? My teacher said that with my High School education I should get at least $12.00 an hour to start. This was when the minimum wage was around $6.00. OK said I ,I have a test for you ! How do you remove a nut? Clock wise or anti clock wise ? I don`t know he exclaimed I have no experience .And I don`t have $ 12.00 an hour to teach you either was my reply. Go back to your teacher and tell her that. You see the teacher had not given the Lad the tools to even apply for a job and her inflated thoughts on wages were , I guess due to a lack of knowledge of the real world. I often wonder about that Lad on how he has made out. I hope he is getting his $ 12.00 an hour. At least to start.

Michael Hardner · February 19, 2013

Michael ,it is a pleasure to have polite discourse with someone whom one may have a different opinion with.

My experience here on MLW is that the divisions that exist between us are much more easily worked out through discussion versus media reporting of each sides` (seemingly intractable) positions. The media needs there to be controversy.

Direct discussion might be helpful to explain to people that, for example, not every socialist believes in necessarily increasing government spending and not every conservative necessarily believes that social spending is a bad thing.

I often wonder about that Lad on how he has made out. I hope he is getting his $ 12.00 an hour. At least to start.

It doesn`t sound like he specialized in trades even though he was trying to get a job in trades. People are responsible for their own destinies too. Eventually, people do figure that one out. But sometimes, they don`t. They inherit money and float through life.

Society needs to provide a certain minimum challenge to people, but also allow them to fail without falling to a point where they burden others.

There`s no metric for a society that shows that it is creating people of character, though. People complain more about such things in times of great change, so it`s hard to tell what`s true and what isn`t.

Muddy · February 19, 2013

Your right Michael that we must let people fail. Help them up by all means ,steady them on their feet ,but make them walk. Letting them lean on you will only drag you down too. failure is a very big part of life . Failure is not always a bad thing if one learns from it.

Most of us are quite resilient. We can bounce back and usually do. My failures and my success` make up the person I am today. Of course my ego will always look back on my success`. Such is human nature.

DFCaper · February 19, 2013

I am personally sick of hearing about teachers at a provincial level. We had a throne speech here in Ontario, and much of the media coverage is about teachers. What this new government needs to focus on are issues, and teacher should be very low on that list. Teachers are not rich, but are far from poor. Work hours and benefits that surpass a majority of people. Why is that more important than the sick, the poor, the unemployed, the environment, service employees who are having there wages driven down by temp foreign workers, the DEFICIT, etc...

Or maybe a main focus of the government should be something as major as teacher compensation or ensuring that lawyers are not getting screwed by there clients...

Memorization of the multiplication table is essential to work in the field of science. If you need a computer to think... then you won't be any good. Thankfully, I am still able to get my kids to do that at home, to compensate for errors in direction by the school boards. I think we have excellent teachers working in a poor system...

shortlived · February 20, 2013

Teachers already have pretty good salaries, I think they should just regionally lock in their fair wage with the cost of living index and be done with it. I think that all public servants should get the same wage though (which includes military police, service canada, postal workers, etc..) (this should be based on hours working / hours on call) and danger pay (including occupational health dangers indexing) consideration.

any pay ontop of the base pay itself should come from the board itself.

Edited February 20, 2013 by shortlived

Mighty AC · February 20, 2013

So in your opinion the value of a nurse, teacher, OPP officer, office worker, MTO clerk and letter carrier are essentially equal?

PIK · February 23, 2013

Quality of teachers is a problem. Now you talk to a young person that wants to be a teacher and asked them why, it is all about the pay ,pensions and time off.

Lidgren · March 4, 2013

I am married to a teacher and dont not know where people get their facts on teachers and their wages. I have yet to hear anything right on here. Yes they get summers off, and school ends at around 3:30 but their work does not stop then. The amount of hours they have to put in after school hours is more than you think. Someone posted something about having 20 sick days, and have had a 30% pay increase in the past 8-9 years, not true at all. Yes Alberta is the highest paid and is bargaining their collective agreement right now. I think what Alberta is offering the teachers is a joke.

Mighty AC · March 4, 2013

The information you are questioning is mostly accurate.

Until recently Ontario teachers received 20 paid sick days. Unused days could be banked and paid out at the final year wage level upon retirement. The recent negotiation mess has eliminated the payout going forward. Though, teachers with 10+ years experience will still be paid for banked days and those with less will receive 10% of their bank.

Teachers will now receive 10 sick days + 4 family care days and 1 personal day. Most boards will be able to bank unused sick days, not to be paid in cash but to be used as sick days in subsequent years. Teachers who use up all their paid days off will receive 66% of their pay for sick days by default and can qualify for higher payouts depending on the situation.

The pay increase over the last 8-9 years is fairly accurate as well; depending on how calculated. The average teacher salary in ON, in 2009 was $83,500 which was up 20% in a 6 year period.

We perform an important service, contribute loads of our own time and money to the community and are generally under appreciated. However, teachers are not paid too little. As government will have to contract in the coming years I think it is appropriate for teachers to not only accept wage freezes but also minor wage contractions.

Topaz · March 4, 2013

I noticed in one community online newspaper, that parents want the community to bring back the Montessori School it had in the '90's because they are tired of the problems with teachers and strikes in the public school system. I can see down the road, if teachers strikes are like this one, that the computers, along with at home education will reduce the number teachers needed for grades 1-8.

socialist · March 26, 2013

I noticed in one community online newspaper, that parents want the community to bring back the Montessori School it had in the '90's because they are tired of the problems with teachers and strikes in the public school system. I can see down the road, if teachers strikes are like this one, that the computers, along with at home education will reduce the number teachers needed for grades 1-8.

Not gonna happen. I will graduate in a month with my education degree. i will deserve evry pennny i am paid if not more. you have no proof of your made-up statement.

gunrutz · March 28, 2013

Not gonna happen. I will graduate in a month with my education degree. i will deserve evry pennny i am paid if not more. you have no proof of your made-up statement.

Isn't it funny how socialists get so self righteous about their money their personal value, while telling everyone else they need to be taxed more. You would think that being such an idealist they would be the first to volunteer to be paid less or at least give more of that money back so it can be spent on more social, forward thinking, communistical programs. In any case, it is only this phony, unreal system setup by people who for the most part could only talk, or think (about how the world should be more the way they want it) for a living, while never actually knowing what it is like to work, really work, that could allow someone with your attitude to ever be paid. You would clearly never add any true value to our society, beyond perpetuating the self serving, and paid for by people who actually produce something real, system within which you exist. I have hope that teachers (allegedly) like you (doubtful you are one at all) are few, my experience with my own children are somewhat reassuring on that front.

GostHacked · March 28, 2013

Why should teachers get more?

Waiters should get more. Cashiers should get more. Car mechanics should be paid more.

The only way to get more (get paid more) is to find a way to produce more with less. IOW, new technology - or trade.

-----

I suspect that teachers in 2013 are like bank tellers in 1968. There's a technological tsunami about to hit teachers just as it hit the banking industry some 40 years ago.

I'd rather have a human teach children than a computer. This technology is facilitating isolation and less real interaction with other humans.

Jerry J. Fortin · March 28, 2013

Wow. Education or Healthcare....take your pick but debatable as to which has greater relevance in society. We don't need to debate which is what between the two but we do need to simply agree that teacher salaries have little impact on education in this nation.

Education is an expense, period. The teachers have a union, period. The union and the province have contracts, period. What passes for good faith negotiations are entrenched within labour laws already established, period. They get what they negotiate,period. I am sorry but in the case of public servants, the tax payers are the employers not masters, and employers are subject to the laws of the land, period.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would tend to think that there are few individuals who would desire that their personal salary be up to the whim of individuals who had absolutely nothing to do with them. Try and tell a friend that you think they get paid too much for what they do and you get the idea quick enough. Its a non-starter but a great political football for idiots looking to make points on the backs of others.

The teachers are worth a hell of a lot more than they are getting paid to be parents to thirty kids at a time. You want to cut their salaries then go do their work first, then come back and tell me what a sweet gig it was..

socialist · March 28, 2013

Wow. Education or Healthcare....take your pick but debatable as to which has greater relevance in society. We don't need to debate which is what between the two but we do need to simply agree that teacher salaries have little impact on education in this nation.

Education is an expense, period. The teachers have a union, period. The union and the province have contracts, period. What passes for good faith negotiations are entrenched within labour laws already established, period. They get what they negotiate,period. I am sorry but in the case of public servants, the tax payers are the employers not masters, and employers are subject to the laws of the land, period.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would tend to think that there are few individuals who would desire that their personal salary be up to the whim of individuals who had absolutely nothing to do with them. Try and tell a friend that you think they get paid too much for what they do and you get the idea quick enough. Its a non-starter but a great political football for idiots looking to make points on the backs of others.

The teachers are worth a hell of a lot more than they are getting paid to be parents to thirty kids at a time. You want to cut their salaries then go do their work first, then come back and tell me what a sweet gig it was..

Exactly. Most parets can't even look after one kid, nevermind 30. Teachers should be paid 6 figures easily.

GostHacked · March 28, 2013

Exactly. Most parets can't even look after one kid, nevermind 30. Teachers should be paid 6 figures easily.

We've seen it too where the claim is 'but they get two months off a year' plus all those holidays the kids have too. Without understanding that in many cases the teachers are working through those breaks and spend a lot of time after hours ..aka homework for teachers, in the form of grading papers and grading tests.