Are we pricing public services out of reach?

[GostHacked]

But in order to pay eight guys and two trucks we have to have several fewer paramedics driving around. If we had fewer firefighters with big trucks we'd get paramedics there much faster and wouldn't need the firefighters.

If we had fewer firefighters, then they don't have the capacity to handle large fires (like 3-5 alarm fires). Possibly expand firehalls to house one ambulance/paramedic team. Reducing the amount of firefighters in my view is a very very stupid thing to do.

So give them the jaws of life. I'm a fan of the New York system where paramedics and rescue trucks are assigned to the police department. That makes them multi functional. They can rescue people from cars, do emergency health care work and also policing work.

I am not a fan of firefighters and paramedics doing police work. Although we might see some reduction in police brutality! Firefighters seem to be quite a helpful bunch.

I recall a fire at the warehouse I work at, happened about 2 years ago. The firefighters are worth every penny.

[Scotty]

You're giving a lot of facts but not providing links or cites.

Edited to add: I'm pretty sure you're not wrong on these but this is an argument about quantifying needs.

Hard to find them all again and not really into doing a long search, but military salaries are fairly easy.

Why, for example, does a corporal earn over $60,000 in the Canadian Armed Forces? Bear in mind the great majority of these people never carry weapons of any kind and go nowhere near anyplace dangerous. I've been told corporal is basically the lowest rank for infantrymen after they've been in the service for a few years. Private is basically someone who just joined a year or two ago. A long service captain makes almost $100,000. For a British captain it's $70,000

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/payscales-131

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armypayscales.htm

And this cite from yesterday, which was what got me to thinking, showing British police starting salaries are to be cut to $30,000. Starting salary of a toronto police officer is $60,000

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/uni_benefits.php

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21027176

[Scotty]

If we had fewer firefighters, then they don't have the capacity to handle large fires (like 3-5 alarm fires). Possibly expand firehalls to house one ambulance/paramedic team. Reducing the amount of firefighters in my view is a very very stupid thing to do.

That's an argument which ignores the fact we have too many already. It's the same thing as happened in Toronto. The Toronto Fire Chief said he could live with the existing budget without any deterioration in service. Even so, the firefighters union managed to get city council to spend millions more.

I am not a fan of firefighters and paramedics doing police work. Although we might see some reduction in police brutality! Firefighters seem to be quite a helpful bunch.

Probably they want to be give they spend most of their time sitting around the firehall playing video games.

[GostHacked]

That's an argument which ignores the fact we have too many already. It's the same thing as happened in Toronto. The Toronto Fire Chief said he could live with the existing budget without any deterioration in service. Even so, the firefighters union managed to get city council to spend millions more.

I'd rather have a few to many firemen than not enough. You can surely revisit it to see if a reduction is actually worth it and a smart move without compromising response times and capacity. But if the notion is to reduce for the sake of reducing, I am not for it.

In a life and death situation, seconds wasted mean life or death for the people involved in the incident. But I am sure there are some beaurocratic waste that we can easily clean up, potentially saving more money compared to reducing the firefighting force.

Probably they want to be give they spend most of their time sitting around the firehall playing video games.

The ones I know are constantly training during downtime and doing drills to become a better cohesive team. They don't just sit around when there is nothing to do. Granted sure some may actually be like that. But these guys for the most part try to stay on top of their game. My pal is a great example, as he has managed to procure a couple old planes in order to do some drills with during that down time.

Edited January 17, 2013 by GostHacked

[The_Squid]

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/11/29/so-whats-an-oc-transpo-driver-really-make/

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/788256--ttc-s-big-earners-club-up-by-almost-one-third

I was right. Your link says they make $57k, not 80k.

You are comparing wages and benefits added all together with wages in the UK that may or may not include benefits as well and which you probably made up anyway since you didn't provide any citations.

[Moonbox]

Busdriver...+60k/year. How does that make sense?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Vic Toews said today that policing costs were unsustainable. I haven't done a study of everywhere around the world, but I was recently looking around at salaries in Europe and the US, and specifically at the United Kingdom. By way of comparison, their public servants earn considerably less than Canadians do at almost all levels. For example, a British constable earns approximately $58,000. A Canadian 1st Class constable earns between $80,000-$90,000. In the US, the average police salary is $50,000 (for those who might argue Cdn cops carry guns and face greater danger)

Even Canadian parking enforcement officers earn a lot more, on avg $60,000 vs about $30,000 for traffic wardens in the UK. TTC ticket enforcement officers, some of whom weren't even showing up for work, earn between $60,000-$70,000.

This is in line with other government professions. A Canadian teacher earns about $75-$80,000 while a British teacher earns, on average, closer to $53,000.

A Canadian firefighter earns about $80,000 vs about $44,000 for a British firefighter.

A mid range corporal (the main enlisted rank) in the CAF earns $68,000. A lance corporal in the UK earns $35,000

A public transit bus driver in Canada earns $70,000 - $80,000. In the UK it's $44,000

And in case you're wondering, the cost of living in the UK is 3.5% higher than in Canada.

Also, all of the salaries above can be increased through overtime and various other bonuses, but adding that in made it too difficult to make comparisons.

I don't want to suggest all our problems are due to high priced public services, but it is true that we haven't enough police, enough doctors and nurses (they also get paid less in the UK but then we have to worry more about the US next door), that bus routes have to be cut back constantly due to the huge costs, that we don't have enough soldiers, etc. etc. Is it proper for ordinary public servants, ie, those who don't require university degrees to be making salaries which are far higher than most taxpayers, even the ones WITH university, and higher than most of our OECD partners?

At least quote proper number when talking internationally.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/teacher-pay-canada-near-the-top-of-the-oecd-class/article4541629/

Canadian teachers are near the top when considering "purchasing power parity".

or elementary teachers, the starting salary in Canada (all data are as of 2010) was $34,443, although a teacher with fifteen years of experience earns $54,978. In contrast, the OECD average is a top salary of $37,603. U.S. elementary teachers start at $36,858, but have a top salary after fifteen years of $45,226. Data for teachers at the secondary level tell the same story too: Canadian teachers do a bit better than the average.

So yes, Canadian teachers are paid well. But some of those countries use teachers ONLY as teachers. They are NOT all expected to volunteer after school for anything other than school related events (graduation, awards night, information night, etc.) Much of this change can be attributed to growth in value of the Canadian dollar. In 2009, for instance, the Canadian dollar was .80cents to USD, and historically for the last few decades has been lower than the USD. This would peg teachers at the same rate as the United States/just below. Now, using current figures, Teachers in Canada appear better off because of the relative value of the american dollar.

[Argus]

So yes, Canadian teachers are paid well. But some of those countries use teachers ONLY as teachers. They are NOT all expected to volunteer after school for anything other than school related events (graduation, awards night, information night, etc.) Much of this change can be attributed to growth in value of the Canadian dollar. In 2009, for instance, the Canadian dollar was .80cents to USD, and historically for the last few decades has been lower than the USD. This would peg teachers at the same rate as the United States/just below. Now, using current figures, Teachers in Canada appear better off because of the relative value of the american dollar.

While there are some teachers who put in more than the required hours, others do only what is required. Canadian teachers are the second-highest paid in the world, earning about double the OECD average and far more than their U.S. colleagues. This is despite dramatically shorter school days and years than most other countries, a 2011 study by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development indicates.

http://business.fina...their-high-pay/

Three quarters of college students fail a test requiring them to find Europe, Africa, and North America on a map.

"They should not be confusing Antarctica and the Arctic, and they should know that they live on the Atlantic Ocean ... and they should be able to know where North America is."

http://ca.news.yahoo...-083845512.html

In total, 42 per cent of Canadians are semi-illiterate. The proportion is even worse for those in middle age. And even when new immigrants are excluded, the numbers remains pretty much the same.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/education/canada-shame.html

The math skills of students entering Canadian universities have declined sharply in recent years, with many students unable to do basic arithmetic

http://www.universityaffairs.ca/big-drop-in-math-skills-of-entering-students.aspx

Edited January 18, 2013 by Argus

[Argus]

Busdriver...+60k/year. How does that make sense?

Some of them make over 100k with overtime. That makes even less.

[The_Squid]

Some of them make over 100k with overtime. That makes even less.

Can you cite a case where this has happened?

That would mean a driver making $50k per year would have to work more than 25 hours worth of OT each and every week of the entire year. 65 hour work weeks on average for an entire year? I highly doubt it.

[eyeball]

Busdriver...+60k/year. How does that make sense?

CEO's...millions...

You're right, it makes no sense.

Edited January 19, 2013 by eyeball

[Argus]

Can you cite a case where this has happened?

That would mean a driver making $50k per year would have to work more than 25 hours worth of OT each and every week of the entire year. 65 hour work weeks on average for an entire year? I highly doubt it.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2011/03/31/17830166.html

[MiddleClassCentrist]

While there are some teachers who put in more than the required hours, others do only what is required. Canadian teachers are the second-highest paid in the world, earning about double the OECD average and far more than their U.S. colleagues. This is despite dramatically shorter school days and years than most other countries, a 2011 study by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development indicates.

http://business.fina...their-high-pay/

Three quarters of college students fail a test requiring them to find Europe, Africa, and North America on a map.

"They should not be confusing Antarctica and the Arctic, and they should know that they live on the Atlantic Ocean ... and they should be able to know where North America is."

http://ca.news.yahoo...-083845512.html

In total, 42 per cent of Canadians are semi-illiterate. The proportion is even worse for those in middle age. And even when new immigrants are excluded, the numbers remains pretty much the same.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...nada-shame.html

The math skills of students entering Canadian universities have declined sharply in recent years, with many students unable to do basic arithmetic

http://www.universit...g-students.aspx

Math Skills Drop - Conservatives got rid of OAC (Grade 13 For University Students Disappeared). Universities didn't adjust their skills requirements to accommodate the change very well. Also, Boards of Education like to put Phys Ed teachers with CRAZY STUPID methods of teaching math in charge of numeracy programs. Because so many psych/philosophy/gen arts majors have little understanding of math and manage to be the majority of administration... this happens.

I'd like to see the info on school days in other countries, maybe we should make them longer? Since students parents don't expect them to do any home work anymore.

[The_Squid]

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2011/03/31/17830166.html

Pretty bizarre that some drivers work enough to make that much!

[CPCFTW]

Pretty bizarre that some drivers work enough to make that much!

Not really in a unionized environment. The bus drivers who get first shot at overtime are likely the ones with the highest base salary.

[Argus]

Pretty bizarre that some drivers work enough to make that much!

What's even more bizarre is that in a bus company with 12,000 employees over 1,000 of them made more than $100,000.

[Argus]

Not really in a unionized environment. The bus drivers who get first shot at overtime are likely the ones with the highest base salary.

I work in a unionized environment, and OT is at the discretion of the manager, as to when, who and how much. No seniority rules. Furthermore, if you were to take 12,000 of our employees at random you'd find that they likely to be more educated than at a bus company, and that you'd find very few making over $100,000.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Argus

[CPCFTW]

I work in a unionized environment, and OT is at the discretion of the manager, as to when, who and how much. No seniority rules. Furthermore, if you were to take 12,000 of our employees at random you'd find that they likely to be more educated than at a bus company, and that you'd find very few making over $100,000.

Is it in the public sector?

Edited January 21, 2013 by CPCFTW

[Argus]

Is it in the public sector?

Yep. Federal government.

[Signals.Cpl]

A mid range corporal (the main enlisted rank) in the CAF earns $68,000. A lance corporal in the UK earns $35,000

The max salary a CPL can make is a little over 58,000 dollars a year, counting specialist or MCpl as the standard to compare is inaccurate.

[CPCFTW]

Yep. Federal government.

Yeah most fed govt jobs start around 45k and run up to 80k. I don't think there's too much OT to be had. I'm sure the salary range is similar for bus drivers but there is a lot of OT available. Either way, it's a lot of taxpayer money.

[shortlived]

Canada should just let a genderarmie branch of the military do policing when it isn't invaded. The military gets low pay. Problem solved.

As far as the TTC, these corps should be able to run themselves, but if conditions on grants and loans want to be attached so be it.

None the less TTC cops are more than just ticketters, apparently they are like NS or something just like the OPP.

Edited February 4, 2013 by shortlived

[jacee]

I see a some issues with the numbers being bandied about here.

One is mentioned by Squid re comparing 'cost' per employee, including benefits, to salaries per se.

One was raised by SigCpl re comparing Cpl to MCpl, ie, those with special qualifications/added responsibilities, who would appear on the same pay grid. This is also an issue when looking at teachers' pay grids where the top pay levels are for those few with system-wide responsibilities, esp curriculum design/implementation and program management. These are manager positions nonetheless included in the teachers' grid, not classroom teacher pay.

But the main issue I see, and what I think underlies the current wailing-and-gnashing-of-teeth hasn't been mentioned yet: Demographics ... BABY BOOMERS, the BULGE, born 1955- 1965, now 45-54 years of age, likely at the top of their pay grid and there are just MORE of them than there are at younger, lower paid levels.

It isn't the pay levels per individual that make overall costs look so high, but the number of people at the top pay levels.

It's very frustrating to see the 'blame game' erupting when the reality is just a reality of a glut of boomers nearing retirement. As the 'bulge' retires after 30 years of service, over the next 10 years, overall costs will start declining accordingly.

But of course the wailing and gnashing and slashing will go on until then, and then the slashers will take credit for the coming decline in costs, that will in reality be nothing more than an already existing demographic reality.

Nothing more than political opportunism. Sigh.

Isuggest, if you can, take a good look at this dynamic population chart:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/ads-annonces/91-520-x/pyra-eng.htm

If you can't open that, try this:

http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/cansim/a05?lang=eng&id=0510001

[Argus]

Canada should just let a genderarmie branch of the military do policing when it isn't invaded. The military gets low pay. Problem solved.

The military is NOT low paid. In fact, they're paid very well indeed.

[Argus]

Yeah most fed govt jobs start around 45k and run up to 80k. I don't think there's too much OT to be had. I'm sure the salary range is similar for bus drivers but there is a lot of OT available. Either way, it's a lot of taxpayer money.

There is a difference between a blue collar job which requires no education, and federal government jobs, most of which (over the level of clerk anyway) requires a degree.