Are we pricing public services out of reach?

[Scotty]

Vic Toews said today that policing costs were unsustainable. I haven't done a study of everywhere around the world, but I was recently looking around at salaries in Europe and the US, and specifically at the United Kingdom. By way of comparison, their public servants earn considerably less than Canadians do at almost all levels. For example, a British constable earns approximately $58,000. A Canadian 1st Class constable earns between $80,000-$90,000. In the US, the average police salary is $50,000 (for those who might argue Cdn cops carry guns and face greater danger)

Even Canadian parking enforcement officers earn a lot more, on avg $60,000 vs about $30,000 for traffic wardens in the UK. TTC ticket enforcement officers, some of whom weren't even showing up for work, earn between $60,000-$70,000.

This is in line with other government professions. A Canadian teacher earns about $75-$80,000 while a British teacher earns, on average, closer to $53,000.

A Canadian firefighter earns about $80,000 vs about $44,000 for a British firefighter.

A mid range corporal (the main enlisted rank) in the CAF earns $68,000. A lance corporal in the UK earns $35,000

A public transit bus driver in Canada earns $70,000 - $80,000. In the UK it's $44,000

And in case you're wondering, the cost of living in the UK is 3.5% higher than in Canada.

Also, all of the salaries above can be increased through overtime and various other bonuses, but adding that in made it too difficult to make comparisons.

I don't want to suggest all our problems are due to high priced public services, but it is true that we haven't enough police, enough doctors and nurses (they also get paid less in the UK but then we have to worry more about the US next door), that bus routes have to be cut back constantly due to the huge costs, that we don't have enough soldiers, etc. etc. Is it proper for ordinary public servants, ie, those who don't require university degrees to be making salaries which are far higher than most taxpayers, even the ones WITH university, and higher than most of our OECD partners?

[guyser]

.. but it is true that we haven't enough police,

Why do you say that?

[Moonbox]

Our public servants, particularly the ones doing low-skill work (ie. bus drivers, clerks etc) are way overpaid and have been for a long time. Successive governments' short-term policies of appeasement have led to the problem, and now the only solution is layoffs and service reductions.

It's a pretty sad when getting a government job (municipal, provincial or federal) is widely considered/known to be a golden ticket to early retirement with a fat pension.

[Michael Hardner]

The public is ill-equipped to oversee operations properly. They have exactly one tool at their disposal to fix things - the ballot. As such, as long as taxes don't go up too much and services happen the system stays as it is. Once in a generation you will get an overhaul of service delivery, if lucky.

The current situation of Toronto is typical. There is talk of cutting back fire services, which is met with an emotional onslaught wherein nobody knows what is required, and a single metric keeps getting quoted over an over (60 seconds less response time) whether it's true or not.

I would like to see service delivery pushed off to a multi-party committee to act as board of directors, and for the organizations to be managed by external companies that bid for the contracts to run them. Large organization management is awful anyway - public or private sector - so putting a large organization at the behest of politicians is about the worst thing you can ask for.

Canada needs to develop a public that can monitor services - politicians and the press are unable to, as are the masses.

[Moonbox]

Wow that was really well said. I couldn't agree more.

[Canuckistani]

I would like to see service delivery pushed off to a multi-party committee to act as board of directors, and for the organizations to be managed by external companies that bid for the contracts to run them.

You mean like all the government contracts that are let now and are so highly efficient and cost savings? It seems to just add a layer of profit taking to the whole deal. Workers are paid less, but the savings go into the pocket of the companies. I'd rather stick with the swivel service, but (I believe this is your bugbear) make govt spending much much more transparent.

[Boges]

The whole Toronto Fire Services issue is a good way to illustrate this. Currently they have 101 unoccupied positions, yet they are portraying not filling those spots as cuts. Also studies show that fire calls are a fraction of the calls the Fire Services take. They mostly take Medical calls. Of course they also refuse to be merged with EMS like in many places in the US.

Once you give a public service something, taking it away means harm to the public they serve, I just don't buy it.

[Canuckistani]

The whole Toronto Fire Services issue is a good way to illustrate this. Currently they have 101 unoccupied positions, yet they are portraying not filling those spots as cuts. Also studies show that fire calls are a fraction of the calls the Fire Services take. They mostly take Medical calls. Of course they also refuse to be merged with EMS like in many places in the US.

Once you give a public service something, taking it away means harm to the public they serve, I just don't buy it.

I was watching a DaVinci's Inequest the other day, and they talked about cross training the police and firefighters. Ie firefighters would be trained as police, not sure if the reverse was also true. I'd never heard of this before, but DaVinci stories are usually based on real events in Vancouver. Sounds like a good idea to me.

[Michael Hardner]

You mean like all the government contracts that are let now and are so highly efficient and cost savings? It seems to just add a layer of profit taking to the whole deal. Workers are paid less, but the savings go into the pocket of the companies. I'd rather stick with the swivel service, but (I believe this is your bugbear) make govt spending much much more transparent.

That would work too.

[The_Squid]

Without links and references to prove his claims, I think the OP is full of crap.

http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-bus-drivers-subway-transit-operators-canada.html

Bus drivers, on average, make less than $20/hr. The OP claims they make $70-80k. What a load! I didn't bother with checking the rest of the claims. The bus driver claim stood out so badly that it was easy to refute.

Just more rightwing lies about the public service.

[Canuckistani]

That would work too.

I forgot to mention, I would also clone Tommy Douglas and put him in charge of govt spending. Cheapskate with a heart.

[Michael Hardner]

Once you give a public service something, taking it away means harm to the public they serve, I just don't buy it.

Every single issue is portrayed as greedy rich people denying the basics to the people. It's irresponsible and it ensures that services will eventually be cut unevenly.

[Michael Hardner]

I forgot to mention, I would also clone Tommy Douglas and put him in charge of govt spending. Cheapskate with a heart.

That's me. I would run for the NDP, increase services for the poor and cut them for everyone else. They could enjoy the lower taxes they're always looking for.

[eyeball]

Vic Toews said today that policing costs were unsustainable.

WTF? I thought he said no cost was too high.

[Guest Derek L]

I was watching a DaVinci's Inequest the other day, and they talked about cross training the police and firefighters. Ie firefighters would be trained as police, not sure if the reverse was also true. I'd never heard of this before, but DaVinci stories are usually based on real events in Vancouver. Sounds like a good idea to me.

That was done for a period of time in Esquimalt, on Vancouver Island……..I think it ended once they amalgamated all the greater Victoria forces to some degree........

[Scotty]

Why do you say that?

We have one of the lowest police/citizen ratios in the western world, far lower than many other places. Some of our cities have an abysmally low crime solution rate. And in some places, the time it takes to get a cop to the door is in hours, not minutes, and I'm not talking about the middle of nowhere. It also takes far too long to get a paramedic.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Scotty

[Michael Hardner]

Hi Scotty - I count 4 cites that you need to provide for your post.

[Scotty]

The whole Toronto Fire Services issue is a good way to illustrate this. Currently they have 101 unoccupied positions, yet they are portraying not filling those spots as cuts. Also studies show that fire calls are a fraction of the calls the Fire Services take. They mostly take Medical calls. Of course they also refuse to be merged with EMS like in many places in the US.

Fire services across Canada are a notorious waste of money. Very few of their calls have anything to do with fires. Mostly, they get sent on health calls because they can get there faster than ambulances, and at least they are trained in first aid. But we wind up sending two big fire trucks and a bunch of guys to a heart attack call when we should have far fewer firefighters with big trucks and far more paramedics in little vans.

[guyser]

We have one of the lowest police/citizen ratios in the western world, far lower than many other places.

Crime is and has for quite some time, been dropping.

[Moonbox]

Bus drivers, on average, make less than $20/hr. The OP claims they make $70-80k. What a load! I didn't bother with checking the rest of the claims. The bus driver claim stood out so badly that it was easy to refute.

The website's info is flat-out incorrect. I know this for a fact because it says a bus driver in Guelph on the high end makes less than $52000/year. I see their tax returns, and I know with certainty that a long-term bus driver in Guelph makes over $60,000/year in pure salary.

I can think of literally zero scenarios where a profession like that, with no literally no required skills to speak of, merits a $60,000/year salary. This does not include benefits/pension.

[Michael Hardner]

Fire services across Canada are a notorious waste of money. Very few of their calls have anything to do with fires. Mostly, they get sent on health calls because they can get there faster than ambulances, and at least they are trained in first aid. But we wind up sending two big fire trucks and a bunch of guys to a heart attack call when we should have far fewer firefighters with big trucks and far more paramedics in little vans.

You're giving a lot of facts but not providing links or cites.

Edited to add: I'm pretty sure you're not wrong on these but this is an argument about quantifying needs.

[GostHacked]

Fire services across Canada are a notorious waste of money. Very few of their calls have anything to do with fires. Mostly, they get sent on health calls because they can get there faster than ambulances,

So, not a waste of money at all then.

and at least they are trained in first aid. But we wind up sending two big fire trucks and a bunch of guys to a heart attack call when we should have far fewer firefighters with big trucks and far more paramedics in little vans.

There is a reason we call them 'first responders'. If you are in a situation that demands paramedics and the firetruck shows up first, would you wave them off to wait for the ambulance? I did not think so.

My pal works as a firefighter over at the Ottawa Airport and many of his calls are medical cases, but in this case they provide a dual role.

Also to note that firefighters are the first in many cases at a vehicle crash site. The paramedics don't have the jaws of life.

Edited January 17, 2013 by GostHacked

[Scotty]

Bus drivers, on average, make less than $20/hr. The OP claims they make $70-80k. What a load! I didn't bother with checking the rest of the claims. The bus driver claim stood out so badly that it was easy to refute.

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/11/29/so-whats-an-oc-transpo-driver-really-make/

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/788256--ttc-s-big-earners-club-up-by-almost-one-third

[Scotty]

Crime is and has for quite some time, been dropping.

According to stats-canada "police reported crime' has been dropping.

According to stats-canada the percentage of crimes being reported to police has been dropping.

I think those two are related.

[Scotty]

There is a reason we call them 'first responders'. If you are in a situation that demands paramedics and the firetruck shows up first, would you wave them off to wait for the ambulance? I did not think so.

But in order to pay eight guys and two trucks we have to have several fewer paramedics driving around. If we had fewer firefighters with big trucks we'd get paramedics there much faster and wouldn't need the firefighters.

Also to note that firefighters are the first in many cases at a vehicle crash site. The paramedics don't have the jaws of life.

So give them the jaws of life. I'm a fan of the New York system where paramedics and rescue trucks are assigned to the police department. That makes them multi functional. They can rescue people from cars, do emergency health care work and also policing work.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Scotty