US dead last in health care

[guyser]

OK...just for the folks keeping score at home....so called healthcare rights for Canadian citizens depend on legal residency, province, basic vs. deluxe treatment, dental, pharma, optometric, dog, cat, and the latest winner of Supreme Court challenges, unless you are a "status Indian".

Got it ?

No you dont Got it.

Here....ca·pri·cious

/kəˈpriSHəs/

Adjective

Given to sudden and unaccountable changes of mood or behavior.

Nope, no application.

Lets try ...ar·bi·trar·y

/ˈärbiˌtrerē/

Adjective

• Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
  
• (of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.
  

Nope.,Doesnt apply either.

Try again, maybe you could/

surprise me

Edited January 23, 2013 by guyser

[Mighty AC]

No, it doesn't really seem that way at all.

Really? Diagnostic scans, xrays and MRIs are a nightmare to get and we wait forever to receive. Family doctor appointments, for those that actually have one, are also a nightmare to book and must take place during business hours. Walk-in clinics close early because of capped billings and again often only operate during business hours. Leaving emerge as the only option for many non-emergency appointments. Once in emerge you wait...and wait.

Most of us would receive better and more timely care in the US. However, Canadians would also receive better care if we spent as much as the US taxpayers do.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Most of us would receive better and more timely care in the US. However, Canadians would also receive better care if we spent as much as the US taxpayers do.

True.....Americans can get MRIs like buying Big Macs at the drive-thru. No big deal.......

[GostHacked]

That's great if you like to wait.....many Americans have more important things to do.

Well get dieing then.

[guyser]

True.....Americans can get MRIs like buying Big Macs at the drive-thru. No big deal.......

Better be a great burger , bring a lunch, you may have to wait for it quite some time.

In reality, both data and anecdotes show that the American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems.

snip..

There is no systemized collection of data on wait times in the U.S. That makes it difficult to draw comparisons with countries that have national health systems, where wait times are not only tracked but made public. However, a 2005 survey by the Commonwealth Fund of sick adults in six nations found that only 47% of U.S. patients could get a same- or next-day appointment for a medical problem, worse than every other country except Canada.

The Commonwealth survey did find that U.S. patients had the second-shortest wait times if they wished to see a specialist or have nonemergency surgery, such as a hip replacement or cataract operation (Germany, which has national health care, came in first on both measures). But Gerard F. Anderson, a health policy expert at Johns Hopkins University, says doctors in countries where there are lengthy queues for elective surgeries put at-risk patients on the list long before their need is critical. "Their wait might be uncomfortable, but it makes very little clinical difference," he says.

The Commonwealth study did find one area where the U.S. was first by a wide margin: 51% of sick Americans surveyed did not visit a doctor, get a needed test, or fill a prescription within the past two years because of cost. No other country came close.

Few solutions have been proposed for lengthy waits in the U.S., in part, say policy experts, because the problem is rarely acknowledged

http://www.businessw...-n-three-months

Edited January 23, 2013 by guyser

[bush_cheney2004]

Better be a great burger , bring a lunch, you may have to wait for it quite some time.

Not if I have the cash.....move to the head of the line...just like Canadian MPs and PMs.

No "wait time" web sites either........

Edited January 23, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[guyser]

Not if I have the cash.....move to the head of the line...just like Canadian MPs and PMs.

The newsweek article says thats not entirely true.

No "wait time" web sites either........

Of course not. There is no systematic collection of wait times in the US,

Wouldnt want the truth to come out and ruin your argument.

[bush_cheney2004]

The newsweek article says thats not entirely true.

Newsweek (print) just went out of business.

Of course not. There is no systematic collection of wait times in the US,

Wouldnt want the truth to come out and ruin your argument.

Dude....the outcry was so great in Canada, they had to appease the peasants with official provincial wait time web sites, probably developed by American contractors...LOL!

[Mighty AC]

However, a 2005 survey by the Commonwealth Fund of sick adults in six nations found that only 47% of U.S. patients could get a same- or next-day appointment for a medical problem, worse than every other country except Canada.

The Commonwealth survey did find that U.S. patients had the second-shortest wait times if they wished to see a specialist or have nonemergency surgery, such as a hip replacement or cataract operation

Why are we so proud of the system we have? There are clearly better options.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why are we so proud of the system we have? There are clearly better options.

Because it's NOT AMERICAN.

[guyser]

Why are we so proud of the system we have? There are clearly better options.

Such as?

Or are you asying there are better systems since the data is saying universal systems far exceed anything else on this planet

[guyser]

Newsweek (print) just went out of business.

sigh...and that means....?

Dude....the outcry was so great in Canada, they had to appease the peasants with official provincial wait time web sites, probably developed by American contractors...LOL!

So the prov health plans saw a problem and are addressing it. Thats bad?

Not recognizing a problem and having no metric to see what wait times exist is better?

Ok.

[Smallc]

Really? Diagnostic scans, xrays and MRIs are a nightmare to get and we wait forever to receive.

MRIs, maybe. The other two, not at all.

Family doctor appointments, for those that actually have one, are also a nightmare to book and must take place during business hours.

Depends on the doctor an the location.

Walk-in clinics close early because of capped billings and again often only operate during business hours.

That depends on the province.

Leaving emerge as the only option for many non-emergency appointments. Once in emerge you wait...and wait.

That isn't true. There are urgent care centres in most major cities now for non emergent cases.

Most of us would receive better and more timely care in the US.

That isn't really borne out by the stats.

[Smallc]

Why are we so proud of the system we have? There are clearly better options.

There are many reasons why Canada is worse than others, logistics being the main reason.

[punked]

There are many reasons why Canada is worse than others, logistics being the main reason.

And no change in the system is going to fix that. We can't shrink our country to be the size of Switzerland, we can't fast forward in time so we have the population base to make it so there are no longer towns of 200 people 8 hours away from the nearest doctor. Those a real barriers that we will deal with, we can shift the cost by going to a private insurance model but we will over all spend more of our GDP just some of us like AC will spend less so that must mean the new model is better.

[Smallc]

I mean, I'm all for introducing new ideas, but, in rural and northern areas, much of it is going to change nothing. There are no hospitals to compete with eachother, because the hospitals that exist are far apart. It's just not that simple. This is not Switzerland.

[punked]

I mean, I'm all for introducing new ideas, but, in rural and northern areas, much of it is going to change nothing. There are no hospitals to compete with eachother, because the hospitals that exist are far apart. It's just not that simple. This is not Switzerland.

We agree. I think there are many things that can be done differently and many of these things cross parties lines. I believe Brad Wall just visited Darrel Dexter because he wants a rural service model like Nova Scotia's. However to pretend moving to a different system of funding isn't going to do anything health care is still going to cost money and much of the costs are built in. Maybe the Rich get better healthcare but outside that nothing is going to change much.

Edited January 24, 2013 by punked

[bush_cheney2004]

So the prov health plans saw a problem and are addressing it. Thats bad?

Not recognizing a problem and having no metric to see what wait times exist is better?

Ok.

Sir, you would have a promising career in politics or sales. The very concept of "wait time" is literally foreign to most Americans, because there is no false expectation of "free access / care", and there is much more capacity for procedures. Waiting one year for a knee replacement isn't a metric...it is unacceptable.

[dre]

I definately would not to switch to the "hope to hell you dont get sick" American system, but arguments about public VS private miss the point. Costs are rising much faster than inflation in both public and private systems... the problem is a macro economic one, its not a problem with how health services are delivered or who the payer is.

A post of mine from another thread explains exactly why healthcare costs are spiraling out of control in both public and private systems in the west. In general terms its because we are not productive enough as a society and foreigners supply way to much of our stuff...

Medical care is getting more expensive primarily because of wages, and because its isolated from global competition.

Heres a salary of GP wages in Brittain for example... The red line shows GP pay and the blue line shows average earnings. Like I explained before theres two different economies... the healthcare economy is protected from global competition, both because of geography and because healthcare workers are very organized and have lobbied very well and because the massive ammount of fake boundaries designed to prevent competition from keeping prices down. The rest of the workers have had more or less stagnant wages for 30 years while doctors have seen nearly 10% annual wage growth.

So the people working in the global economy can no longer afford to buy products and services from workers in these siloed off national healthcare economies. Same goes for things like college tuition.

If the wages of healthcare workers had grown at the same rate as everyone elses wages for the last 30 years then health care prices would be more or less stable and we wouldnt be talking about this.

Pretty easy to understand if you think about it. If the shoemaker's wages triple, while the bricklayers wages are cut in half, then the bricklayer isnt going to be wearing shoes for long.

Base on what I explained above you should see a strong correlation between things like trade deficits and doctor salaries. So I went and looked....

The US has the highest doctors salaries in the world, and the highest trade deficit.

The UK has the second highest doctor salaries in the world, and the 5th highest trade deficit.

Canada has the sixth highest doctor salaries in the world, and the 9th highest trade deficit.

France has the 4th highest trade doctor salaries in the world, and the 6th highest trade deficit.

Increasing medical costs in the west are an entirely predictable consequence of globalization. Most workers wages have been held in check because of competition from foreigners, but doctors and healthcare workers face no such competition. They work in a siloed off economy and its going to get harder and harder for the people who are NOT protected from global competition to purchase things from people that are.

Its really that simple.

Edited January 24, 2013 by dre

[Shady]

I definately would not to switch to the "hope to hell you dont get sick" American system.

That's not what their system is, but regardless, that's a false choice.

Its really that simple.

Not really. Trade deficits have little to do with rising health care costs. Most trade deficits are energy related anyways. Importing oil, etc. The real problem is integrating private sector balances into the system. If doctor's and hospitals had to charge prices that people could actually afford to pay, you'd see massive drops in the costs of services.

[dre]

That's not what their system is, but regardless, that's a false choice.

Not really. Trade deficits have little to do with rising health care costs. Most trade deficits are energy related anyways. Importing oil, etc. The real problem is integrating private sector balances into the system. If doctor's and hospitals had to charge prices that people could actually afford to pay, you'd see massive drops in the costs of services.

You didnt read my post. Costs are going up for the exact reasons I stated and its happening in both private and public systems. Wages in protected economies such as healthcare and education are rising faster than everyone elses wages which are being kept in check by global competition.

I understand its fun for hacks to bicker of public VS private but its a complete and total red herring.

[Mighty AC]

Such as?

Or are you asying there are better systems since the data is saying universal systems far exceed anything else on this planet

I'm partial to the Swiss model. Though I'd bet better systems exist elsewhere in the Universe.

[Mighty AC]

-MRIs, maybe. The other two, not at all.

-Depends on the doctor an the location.

-That depends on the province.

-That isn't true. There are urgent care centres in most major cities now for non emergent cases.

-That isn't really borne out by the stats.

The province is Ontario. Southern Ontario, in a well populated area. After 5pm urgent care centers are almost non-existent and most close their doors prior to closing time. The only diagnostic tests that are available quickly are provided by private, for profit facilities.

I have children who on occasion contract what we suspect are infections (ear, strep, bladder, etc) and need actual medical care in case an antibiotic is required. Since we cannot get same day, or even next couple of days, appointments we have spent long hours in emerge on multiple occasions waiting for simple diagnosis of non-emergency conditions. Believe me I would avoid emerge if I could but our system is seriously lacking. Before I had children and relatives that have developed chronic conditions I thought our healthcare system was just fine. It's great, when you don't have to use it. Anyway, the boomer gen will likely force some positive change to our ailing system, as enough people will be sick at one time.

[Smallc]

Winnipeg has one hospital with a 24 hour urgent care facility. I'm sure at least Ontario's 3 largest cities must have something similar...and you will get diagnostic tests fast if you need them in Ontario, without question.

[Smallc]

I have had multiple contacts with the system btw, in the last 6 months alone. Most were satisfactory.