US dead last in health care

[waldo]

Not at all....in fact...I celebrate free economic choice

yup - if by celebrating, you mean barking wildly throughout this thread because a minuscule number of Canadians receive health care in the U.S.! A minuscule number you can't even qualify separate from continuing to prattle on over forms/agreements - none of which equate to actual practiced usage numbers.

of course, it just gets better when you (also in a self-serving manner) completely blow-off the most significant number of Americans seeking healthcare outside the U.S., with all the associated negative implications it has on your health care 'system'.

The U.S. has no government mandate for universal access or care, unlike Canada, which cannot meet this mandate in a timely manner without American based resources.

of course, this is your ready go-to comeback for anything casting negative criticism on your nations healthcare (your nations health!!!). Well, duh... "we don't got no govment mandating carin fer everyguy"... "that be CommieCare"!

and, of course, we see you ignoring everything thrown your way with curt nothingness responses while you keep a steady beat on "WAIT TIMES"! Buddy, your wait times, comparatively overall, are less than Canada! It's been stated many times over... I guess when that's all you've got, you'll keep ignoring everything else, ad nauseam! Here's a thought for you: why don't your lower wait times result in better health for Americans? What else could be going on? Any chance you might pull your head out of the wait times trough and actually address the OP study? No? Barking is easier for you, right?

[bush_cheney2004]

[bush_cheney2004]

of course, this is your ready go-to comeback for anything casting negative criticism on your nations healthcare (your nations health!!!). Well, duh... "we don't got no govment mandating carin fer everyguy"... "that be CommieCare"!

Why can't Canada meet its CHA mandate with domestic resources ? Why isn't CommieCare providing timely care ?

and, of course, we see you ignoring everything thrown your way with curt nothingness responses while you keep a steady beat on "WAIT TIMES"!

That's because wait times are the most prominent deficiency, and judging by all the energy and money spent to measure and report on wait times by the provinces, it must certainly be a hot button regardless of my American views.

[bush_cheney2004]

Quads' Montana birth give Americans ammo

When the Calgary Health Region

decided last month to send expecting mother Karen Jepp down to Great Falls, Montana because of a lack of neonatal beds

, they probably didn't expect to invite the kind of razzing they've brought upon not only the Calgary hospital system, but also the Canadian healthcare system as a whole.

The

Canadian Press

provides a round-up of

some of the most outraged sound bites from south of the border

:

• 
  
  "We've heard much talk about Canada's `free' health-care system, glorified in Michael Moore's documentary Sicko. But the birth of the Jepp sisters are case in point that Canada's medical system is as flawed as ours, just on the other end. As our congressmen debate the future of our health-care system, we urge them to keep cases such as the Jepps' in mind." - Great Falls
  Tribune
  
  

• 
  
  "I'm sure Canadians like their health system. Just remember, though, that Canada's backup system is in Montana. Great Falls has enough neonatal units to handle quadruple births and a `universal health' nation doesn't." - Charleston (West Virginia)
  Daily Mail
  
  

• 
  
  "Canadians love their health care – in Montana. [...] Universal health care is a pretty edifice to cover the ugly reality of rationing treatment within a bureaucratic monstrosity. Great testimony for single-payer health care: Can't handle a C-section, can't find any room at neonatal intensive care units, has to fly mothers in labour to a small town in the savage land of only half-governmentalized care just so they can bear children." - Milwaukee
  Journal Sentinel
  
  

• 
  
  "More proof socialized health care doesn't work." -
  Powerline News
  blog
  
  

• 
  
  "The precious gift of American citizenship comes to the Jepp quads because there were no hospital facilities anywhere in Canada able to handle four neonatal intensive care babies. Not in Calgary, a city over a million people, the wealthiest in Canada, or anywhere else in Canada. However, Great Falls, a city of well under 100,000 people, apparently had no problem." -
  Blue Zeus
  blog
  
  

[waldo]

That's because wait times are the most prominent deficiency, and judging by all the energy and money spent to measure and report on wait times by the provinces, it must certainly be a hot button regardless of my American views.

nonsense - only in your self-serving mind.

no - there are no wait times in Canada for life-saving care/service. There are 'reasonable-to-extended' wait times for non-life threatening procedures... and there are expected longer wait times for elective surgeries.

again: why don't your lower times result in improved/better health for Americans - relative to other nations within the OP study, why are Americans subject to the, 'American health disadvantage'?

Here's a thought for you: why don't your lower wait times result in better health for Americans? What else could be going on? Any chance you might pull your head out of the wait times trough and actually address the OP study? No? Barking is easier for you, right?

[waldo]

you can keep firing on all your googly cylinders... anomalies exist. I could also play your idiot game (even beyond the nonsense so far) and start to pull out links referencing deaths/problems in your health care system - you know there's no shortage of groups/organizations that fact gather (and publicize) this, if for nothing more than pure partisan intent. It's readily available. And... what would any of it prove?... that we both know how to use a googly? Besides, you'd just pull out your fallback anyway:

of course, this is your ready go-to comeback for anything casting negative criticism on your nations healthcare (your nations health!!!). Well, duh... "we don't got no govment mandating carin fer everyguy"... "that be CommieCare"!

when you continue to refuse to respond to direct challenges concerning the OP study... when you refuse to even acknowledge it, what's the point in continuing?

study purpose? Clearly, the study as written by Americans… for Americans… has principal designs on American introspection of the designated “American health disadvantage”, relative to the rest of the world’s high-income countries. Certainly, a part of that American introspection calls for consideration on the influence of the American health care system in contributing to this American health disadvantage. We certainly don’t see any of that introspection coming forward from those MLW members within this thread who claim to be Americans… those who choose instead to completely ignore the study… to wildly deflect away from the study findings. They choose, instead, to derail this thread away from its intended focus on comparative health analysis, refusing to even acknowledge the study findings; findings that show that:

- the comparative American health disadvantage continues to grow over a now 3 decades+ period of time

- the American health disadvantage is pervasive affecting all American age groups regardless of income, as observed for multiple diseases, biological and behavioural risk factors, and injuries. Detailed study extracts showing this comparative American health disadvantage have been offered within this thread… offered… and ignored.

you ask how Canadians can/might purpose this study. The study, in its comprehensiveness, makes direct and detailed reference to conditions/situation and scenarios within many of the peer review countries compared. There are clearly areas for Canadians to reflect upon, both positively and with our own required introspection on considerations for improvement towards Canadian health.

[WWWTT]

Sure they can...just bring money, same as the Canadians tired of waiting in line back home.

LOL are you for real!?!?

10's of millions cannot access health care in the US!

And as a result die!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Why can't Canada meet its CHA mandate with domestic resources ? Why isn't CommieCare providing timely care ?

Actually Canada came to the aid of the US during Katrina and 9/11.

I know paramedics who went there to help!

Where was George W Bush???

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

you can keep firing on all your googly cylinders... anomalies exist......what would any of it prove?...

It would prove that universal health care in Canada uses rationing via wait times and gatekeepers, with the evil USA as the back up plan. The USA rations care by ability to pay, so there is more than enough excess capacity for Canadians to take advantage of.

"Anomalies exist"....classic !

[/size]when you continue to refuse to respond to direct challenges concerning the OP study... when you refuse to even acknowledge it, what's the point in continuing?

But I have responded with an obvious description of American choices, be it health care or lifestyle. You have not yet responded for the reasons why provinces have American providers under contract. if their "system" is so bad.

[waldo]

The USA rations care by ability to pay, so there is more than enough excess capacity for Canadians to take advantage of.

"Anomalies exist"....classic !

no - the USA rations limited care or outright care denial based on an inability to pay. Canada follows a simple triage approach... absolute life saving trumps all; acceptable to extended degrees of waiting reflect upon such things as life/pain impacting versus elective needs. And yes, those profiled and rare exceptions are anomalies to the relative norm... they tend to get played up in the media, particularly for partisan gain/intent. Why, you yourself have linked to several that were initiated by GOP sources targeting your Affordable Care Act... 'dog whistle' politics at its best. Hey now, perhaps that's why you bark so much!

But I have responded with an obvious description of American choices, be it health care or lifestyle. You have not yet responded for the reasons why provinces have American providers under contract. if their "system" is so bad.

yes, we know... you quite cavalierly dismmiss the OP study findings on the 'American Health Disadvantage' - choosing to categorize your system's negative/reduced comparison results as simply, "life-style choices".

[Canuckistani]

They are life-style choices to a large degree. Drug use, obesity, driving without due care and attention at a safe speed, gun use. Maybe they should have called their findings the "American Mental Health Disadvantage." It wasn't always thus. Maybe the CIA really did put LSD in the drinking water, and they're just on a bum trip.

[waldo]

most certainly... some of the categorizations and associated results... are life-style related; but most certainly not to the blanket outright association made. Yes, clearly, something like the American Obesity Epidemic and all the resultant negative health consequences, has direct attachment to American life-style choices. However, something like diabetes may have a tie to obesity (hence life-style), or it might reflect upon inadequate/missing healthcare. In any case, often, health influencing factors are not in isolation to each other and a negative health result might reflect upon a combination of life-style and poor/absent healthcare.

[bush_cheney2004]

yes, we know... you quite cavalierly dismmiss the OP study findings on the 'American Health Disadvantage' - choosing to categorize your system's negative/reduced comparison results as simply, "life-style choices".

Many are lifestyle choices....and Americans have more choices than Canadians.....ways to live and ways to die. Any "health disadvantage" is certainly not reflected in relative population sizes compared to Canada. Immigrants certainly have chosen the American "disadvantage" over any relative or absolute Canadian "advantage". Why would they do that ?

[cybercoma]

Many are lifestyle choices....and Americans have more choices than Canadians.....ways to live and ways to die. Any "health disadvantage" is certainly not reflected in relative population sizes compared to Canada. Immigrants certainly have chosen the American "disadvantage" over any relative or absolute Canadian "advantage". Why would they do that ?

What does any of this have to do with the OP? People choose to live in the US for any number of reasons that are not important to this conversation. Why is your healthcare system so messed up compared to the rest of the advanced industrial nations? Answer that question.

[Mighty AC]

It's funny that we are arguing over which flawed system is worse. There are better options.

[Canuckistani]

There is no perfect system. We could improve ours, no doubt. Without adding the private insurers that your darlings the Swiss have. I just don't see how adding private profit helps for insurance purposes. Canada has one of the lowest administration costs of the developed countries. France, also held up as a model is way up there in administration costs.

But whatever, the US system is worse, much worse. We have nothing to learn from them except not to copy it. Given that as a a starting point, I'm open to new ideas. Probably be tough to get buyin from enough stakeholders tho, so we might just be stuck with making the best of what we've got. In terms of health outcomes and expense we're not doing bad at all. We're just being fed the "unsustainable" crap by people who want us to go the US way.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada has one of the lowest administration costs of the developed countries...

And yet Canada has one of the most expensive universal access "systems" in the world, but still ranks low (OECD).

But whatever, the US system is worse, much worse. We have nothing to learn from them except not to copy it....

No need to copy the US system, as the provinces already take advantage of American excess capacity for faster diagnostics, cancer treatment, neonatal beds, neurosurgery, bariatric surgery, etc., etc. Canada's government also has to invest far less into R&D, as the Americans pay most of the freight from pharma to the CDC. Canada does provide doctors and other health care professionals (fleeing south for better opportunities and higher pay).

Canadians know where to go when they grow impatient with patriotic suffering in wait time queues.

[guyser]

. Canada does provide doctors and other health care professionals (fleeing south for better opportunities and higher pay).

A loss of 1% since 1980 ...big deal

Since 2004 , a net gain for Canada.

Canadians know where to go when they grow impatient with patriotic suffering in wait time queues.

Yes....all 0.35 % of them. Including the ones who get sick while travelling.

Edited January 28, 2013 by guyser

[bush_cheney2004]

A loss of 1% since 1980 ...big deal

Since 2004 , a net gain for Canada.

Guess again.....it's about 8% of all health care professionals. Canada tries to make up the loss by poaching from developing nations.

Yes....all 0.35 % of them.

Why are there any at all ? Isn't provincial health care to die for ?

[guyser]

Guess again.....it's about 8% of all health care professionals. Canada tries to make up the loss by poaching from developing nations.

LOL. I see you 'guessed" ....and guessed horribly wrong.

Not even close.....5000 Docs leave a year? Oh my , thats so far off the mark as to be pulled from a nether region. At the height or the drain it was 600-700.

5,000

Why are there any at all ? Isn't provincial health care to die for ?

Gish, I guess sick travellers want immediate relief and buiy insurance for their travels.

Why, your hosptials would be broke if it werent for all thos e millions you seem to think go there .

Edited January 28, 2013 by guyser

[bush_cheney2004]

At the "height of the drain" is a healthy admission that the problem existed an still exists. It may be less severe now, but it was just another indicator of how great Canada's health care system was/is when funding was slashed and kept on a starvation diet.

One in nine trained-in-Canada doctors is practising medicine in the United States, says a study published in Tuesday's issue of the Canadian Medical Association Journal.

If Canadian-educated doctors who were born in the U.S. are excluded, the number is one in 12, and the study suggests that luring back some of these Canadian physicians would go a long way toward solving the country's doctor shortage.

'I must admit that I was sort of knocked over by the numbers. They were a lot bigger than I'd anticipated.'

—Dr. Walter Rosser, Queen's University

While they admit the exodus has abated a bit in the past couple of years, the authors say the impact is as if two average-sized medical schools in Canada were doing nothing but training doctors for the United States.

There are only 17 medical schools in this country.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2007/04/10/health-doctors.html

[bush_cheney2004]

Gish, I guess sick travellers want immediate relief and buiy insurance for their travels.

So you are in denial, not admitting that Canadians travel to the U.S. for a health and health care "disadvantage". Amazing.

[guyser]

At the "height of the drain" is a healthy admission that the problem existed an still exists.

It existed, did anyone say otherwise? Nope.

More return than leave now .

So, this is an admission that 8% was pulled out of the nether regions by you is it? (it should be)

[guyser]

So you are in denial, not admitting that Canadians travel to the U.S. for a health and health care "disadvantage". Amazing.

Did i deny anything ? Nope.

Wanna try again?

Your numbers smell of where you pulled them from

American travellers get sick in Canada and seek treatment.......amazing isnt it? I mean wow!

Edited January 28, 2013 by guyser

[guyser]

the gross number of doctors leaving the country hit

two peaks in the last 35 years: one in the late 1970s, when

we lost between 500 to 600 doctors a year, and another

in the mid-1990s, when we lost around 600 to 700 a year.

When assessing the brain drain, it’s important to consider

not only the number of doctors who are leaving, but also the

number returning to Canada. This number has been holding

fairly steady since 1980, with around 250 to 350 returning

per year. Thus, our net loss of physicians is fairly small

— since 1980, our annual net loss has never been more than

one percent (and averages closer to one quarter of a percent)

of all practising physicians.ix, x

In recent years, not only has the brain drain trend slowed,

it has actually reversed. In 2004, there was a net brain gain

of 85 doctors. Although this gain has decreased as of late

— a net gain of 61 doctors in 2005 and 31 in 2006ix, x — the

data still counter popular perceptions that Canadian doctors

are leaving in droves.

The data also disprove claims that the brain drain is

responsible for Canada’s doctor shortage. In 2006, there

were 62,307 active physicians in Canada — the highest

number ever, largely attributable to a more than five percent

increase in Canadian-trained physicians over the last five

years.ix The 2006 data also show a five percent increase in

physicians between 2002 and 2006, which is just over parity

with population growth over the same time.ix

http://www.cfhi-fcass.ca/Migrated/PDF/myth29_e.pdf