US dead last in health care

[bush_cheney2004]

... by addressing a component you choose to belittle as nothing more than your, 'American right to make unhealthy life-style choices or partake in risky behaviours'. Freedom!!!

Ignoring this aspect of analysis and any conclusions is to be expected from you, as amply demonstrated in previous global warming alarmists threads. You have faired no better in this instance.

no - your described conflation was quickly and repeatedly addressed. You simply chose to keep beating on it as a means to perpetuate your deflection away from any discussion on the American health disadvantage.

no² - you have repeatedly been in mistaken lockstep with the op's original (false) assertion with regards to health care.

so what? Your link was simply a statement on conditions surrounding medical care, whether outside the province (within Canada), or outside the province (into the U.S.).

"So what" indeed, as it has been common practice for Canadians and provincial health ministers to direct the official utilization of expensive (yet readily available) American health care resources for many years. No wonder it comes as no surprise.

doesn't matter??? Clearly, to you, in a typical hypocritical stance, it doesn't matter. Your whole unqualified premise is that the U.S. health care system is significantly compromised by having to support Canada's extended reach, even though you can't qualify that extended reach.

Far from that, the fat and rich U.S. system has so much excess capacity it can handle a lot more than wayward Canadians fleeing socialized medicine. It is not a compromise for the intended commerce in the U.S., but it is a stinging indictment of CHA mandated but inadequate health care in Canada.

Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of Americans travel to other countries seeking relief for high American medical costs, or insurance limitations, or outright insurance refusals related to pre-existing conditions. Somehow, you make a most self-serving distinction here. Go figure!

They are not so directed as official policy of their state or federal government, as in Canada. Not even Castro did that.

yes, most certainly - I am a proponent of the Canadian Health Care system, particularly when compared to the American 'system' and the described study's American health disadvantage. You, in the face of the inadequacies associated with the demonstrated disadvantage, continue to defend ignore your country's health disadvantage. Freedom!!!

Correct...I will always choose freedom over collectivist mediocrity. I will never...ever...have to even once consider going to Canada for health care, and sure as hell not as part of a mandated government strategy to stop the wait time bleeding.

Edited January 25, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

no - the described American health disadvantage runs throughout the gamut of the study's subset categorizations, regardless of you attempting to negate the overall findings by addressing a component you choose to belittle as nothing more than your, 'American right to make unhealthy life-style choices or partake in risky behaviours'. Freedom!!!

Ignoring this aspect of analysis and any conclusions is to be expected from you, as amply demonstrated in previous global warming alarmists threads. You have faired no better in this instance.

this is the standard prattle you trot out when you're up against it, flustered and floundering... here's you again reaching for a presumed AGW/CC slam! In that subject context, in regards your self-professed denier/fake skeptic position, I'll most certainly hold up anything I've ever stated on this board, any position I hold and have fronted. Perhaps you should take another shot at showcasing your numbing lack of knowledge concerning AGW/CC... we haven't had a related good laugh at your expense in a while!

but really, what have I ignored? You've certainly given no foundation to counter the study findings concerning American life-style choices and risky behavior... I certainly can't ignore something you haven't presented!

no2 - you have repeatedly been in mistaken lockstep with the op's original (false) assertion with regards to health care.

no - no, I haven't. I've had nothing to say, nothing whatsoever, concerning the OP reference to medical costs (direct or proportional GDP) in comparing single payer to your failed health care 'system' and the monies your country spends. Quit making shyte up!

so what? Your link was simply a statement on conditions surrounding medical care, whether outside the province (within Canada), or outside the province (into the U.S.).

"So what" indeed, as it has been common practice for Canadians and provincial health ministers to direct the official utilization of expensive (yet readily available) American health care resources for many years. No wonder it comes as no surprise.

common practice??? Just how common? Are you ready to cough up any numbers yet? Just how pervasive is the practice? I mean, after all, for you to keep after this like a junkyard dog, you must have some foundation to support your incessant barking, hey? Nah, not a chance - as I said before, you're simply all noise and bluster:

Far from that, the fat and rich U.S. system has so much excess capacity it can handle a lot more that wayward Canadians fleeing socialized medicine. It is not a compromise for the intended commerce in the U.S., but it is a stinging indictment of CHA mandated but inadequate health care in Canada.

stinging indictment??? No - see the immediately preceding graphic!

Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of Americans travel to other countries seeking relief for high American medical costs, or insurance limitations, or outright insurance refusals related to pre-existing conditions. Somehow, you make a most self-serving distinction here. Go figure!

They are not so directed as official policy of their state or federal government, as in Canada. Not even Castro did that,

no - clearly it has been the official policy of your governments to provide piss-poor, inadequate and life-compromising health care to its populace. Not even Castro did that.

So like I said, you are a proponent of the current "system" and will defend it even in the face of demonstrated inadequacies. Nonbelievers will continue to seek private pay solutions in Canada and the USA.

yes, most certainly - I am a proponent of the Canadian Health Care system, particularly when compared to the American 'system' and the described study's American health disadvantage. You, in the face of the inadequacies associated with the demonstrated disadvantage, continue to defend ignore your country's health disadvantage. Freedom!!!

Correct...I will always choose freedom over collectivist mediocrity. I will never...ever...have to even once consider going to Canada for health care, and sure as hell not as part of a mandated government strategy to stop the wait time bleeding.

you quite liberally exercise the mediocre collectivist sloganeering - "give me liberty or give me death". Clearly a slogan aimed directly at the heart of the American health disadvantage!

[bush_cheney2004]

common practice??? Just how common? Are you ready to cough up any numbers yet? Just how pervasive is the practice? I mean, after all, for you to keep after this like a junkyard dog, you must have some foundation to support your incessant barking, hey?

It is so common that Ontario Health requires OOC (Out of Country) prior-approvals as a routine matter, identifying approved U.S. provider networks, just like any US health insurance company or HMO.. Three treatments are so commonly needed, they have there own dedicated place on the form (i.e. cancer, diagnostics, bariatric surgery). So here we have an example of a Canadian province formally recognizing needed OOC care, funding such care, and specifically identifying resources available in the USA to get such care.

http://www.health.go...r_approval.aspx

In some cases, approval of an OOC procedure is qualified by specific reference to the state of experiments and/or clinical trials in the United States.

you quite liberally exercise the mediocre collectivist sloganeering - "give me liberty or give me death". Clearly a slogan aimed directly at the heart of the American health disadvantage!

Yes, Americans like that slogan...it has served us well, starting with your former empire on which the sun never set.

Edited January 25, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

common practice??? Just how common? Are you ready to cough up any numbers yet? Just how pervasive is the practice? I mean, after all, for you to keep after this like a junkyard dog, you must have some foundation to support your incessant barking, hey? Nah, not a chance - as I said before, you're simply all noise and bluster:

It is so common that Ontario Health requires OOC (Out of Country) prior-approvals as a routine matter

first you throw down a link to the Manitoba gov site... and now Ontario!!! Granted, you did ask if you had to provide a link to all 10 provinces sites... but really, c'mon - there's no need. I've just acknowledged it occurs in the graphic you refused to include in the quote... the graphic you've ignored! Just how common is the practice, hey?

Yes, Americans like that slogan...it has served us well, starting with your former empire on which the sun never set.

ah yes, the vanquished always retreat by puffing their chests over past glories! Speaking of setting suns - see the American health disadvantage, hey?

[bush_cheney2004]

really, c'mon - there's no need. I've just acknowledged it occurs in the graphic you refused to include in the quote... the graphic you've ignored! Just how common is the practice, hey?

For the reading impaired, the practice is so common that OOC authorizations are documented in "Health Ministry" approval forms not only by procedure (cancer, diagnostics, bariatric surgery), but also by approved American provider networks. In other words, American solutions are documented in provincial health care insurance documentation in outright acknowledgement that the province cannot/will not provide timely care in some cases.

American "medical tourism" has no such formal government sanction and complicity.

ah yes, the vanquished always retreat by puffing their chests over past glories! Speaking of setting suns - see the American health disadvantage, hey?

It is much easier to see the Canadian license plates at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

[Bonam]

Just how common is the practice, hey?

.61% of Canadians is about 213,000 patients. But your graph lacks context. Is it 0.61% of Canadians that seek care in the US over their lifetimes? 0.61% of procedures that are outsourced to the US? 0.61% of patients annually? Does the 99.39% include people that don't seek health care at all? The data is also 11 years old.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

Good news for legal residents of Ontario....your province has entered into preferred provider contracts with U.S. facilities for bariatric services, cancer care, diagnostic imaging, and residential treatment. Canadians availing themselves of this officially funded health care option with prior authorization can see the USA in an Ontario/CAW built Chevrolet in the following states:

• Michigan
  
• New York
  
• Minnesota
  
• Ohio
  
• Utah
  
• Louisiana
  
• Wisconsin
  
• Pennsylvania
  
• Tennessee
  
• Georgia
  
• California
  
• Florida
  
• Texas
  
• Massachusetts
  
• Oregon
  

Pack a lunch...bring your camera smart phone....and maybe even buy a GUN !

Edited January 26, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[WWWTT]

Good news for legal residents of Ontario....your province has entered into preferred provider contracts with U.S. facilities for bariatric services, cancer care, diagnostic imaging, and residential treatment. Canadians availing themselves of this officially funded health care option with prior authorization can see the USA in an Ontario/CAW built Chevrolet in the following states:

• Michigan
  
• New York
  
• Minnesota
  
• Ohio
  
• Utah
  
• Louisiana
  
• Wisconsin
  
• Pennsylvania
  
• Tennessee
  
• Georgia
  
• California
  
• Florida
  
• Texas
  
• Massachusetts
  
• Oregon
  

Pack a lunch...bring your camera smart phone....and maybe even buy a GUN !

And yet 10's of millions of Americans can not access the same facilities.

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

And yet 10's of millions of Americans can not access the same facilities.

Sure they can...just bring money, same as the Canadians tired of waiting in line back home.

[waldo]

For the reading impaired, the practice is so common that OOC authorizations are documented in "Health Ministry" approval forms not only by procedure (cancer, diagnostics, bariatric surgery), but also by approved American provider networks. In other words, American solutions are documented in provincial health care insurance documentation in outright acknowledgement that the province cannot/will not provide timely care in some cases.

the only reading impairment here is yours. You're now up to linking to the forms for 2 provinces. When will you trot out the other 8 provincial forms? Clearly you realize forms don't equate to the extent of use of the practice... you simply refuse to speak real numbers as you bark away.

American "medical tourism" has no such formal government sanction and complicity.

again, your government sanction and complicity is simply an implicit facet of your failed system. Again, of those hundreds of thousands of Americans seeking medical care outside the U.S., in what you colloquially label as "medical tourism", the principal numbers associate to either U.S. citizens seeking cheaper health services, or those with insurance limitations, or those with outright insurance refusals due to pre-existing conditions. Do you have any forms that cover these scenarios?

It is much easier to see the Canadian license plates at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

yes, you've used that reference several times in the past. I've also read a reference to a recent stat that says 600 Canadians were treated at the Mayo Clinic in one year. Keep barking!

[waldo]

.61% of Canadians is about 213,000 patients. But your graph lacks context. Is it 0.61% of Canadians that seek care in the US over their lifetimes? 0.61% of procedures that are outsourced to the US? 0.61% of patients annually? Does the 99.39% include people that don't seek health care at all? The data is also 11 years old.

clearly, in the absence of more recent studies/data... the (peer-review) study I presented appears to be the seminal reference; one that continues to receive citation and appear in article reference (as recent as 2010 as I've encountered). I would be encouraged if you could present more current data/analysis - clearly, this threads principal deflector won't attempt to address actual numbers. As I read interpretations of the study, it principally relied upon a 5-year data gathering exercise within border U.S. states, with secondary reliance to two Canadian surveys. (As an aside, for what it's worth, that '0.11% use the U.S. for emergency care' data categorization also includes traveling Canadians who were already visiting the U.S. at the time of need).

[waldo]

Sure they can...just bring money, same as the Canadians tired of waiting in line back home.

perhaps they could join the 70 million Americans on Medicaid... those who typically wait more than 3 months to simply see a doctor - those who are marginalized and receive a low priority. Why would that be, hey? Why would some U.S. doctors either refuse to treat Medicaid patients outright, or treat them on a most reduced basis (like dedicating only a single day of the week for seeing Medicaid patients)? Why would that be, hey? Why would low(er) income Americans be categorized in such a way? Surely it's not cause they're "takers and not makers", right?

but hey now, perhaps you could speak to that relatively recent U.S. study that presented wait times for first appointments/consultation in major U.S. cities (for both general and specialty need): I was particularly taken with the analysis that addressed why, in part, Boston specialty wait times were the highest at 50 days... something about 'RomneyCare' and the required health insurance mandate for Massachusetts residents. Why, imagine that, 'universal access' apparently has an impact on wait times! Buckle-up, buckey... Obama has a plan for you! Another interesting tidbit related to my earlier Medicaid reference: apparently, if you're on Medicaid, you may not want to live in Dallas... only 36% of the Dallas facilities even accepted Medicaid patients!

now... you can keep up your charade, or you could actually address the OP study on the American health disadvantage. Gee, I wonder which way you'll go!

[bush_cheney2004]

... Obama has a plan for you! Another interesting tidbit related to my earlier Medicaid reference: apparently, if you're on Medicaid, you may not want to live in Dallas... only 36% of the Dallas facilities even accepted Medicaid patients!

And why should they ? Who wants to work for such low reimbursement rates ? They can wait just like the collectivists rationing health care in Canada.

now... you can keep up your charade, or you could actually address the OP study on the American health disadvantage. Gee, I wonder which way you'll go!

Won't be going to Canada, unlike Canadians going to the US for health and health care.

[waldo]

perhaps they could join the 70 million Americans on Medicaid... those who typically wait more than 3 months to simply see a doctor - those who are marginalized and receive a low priority. Why would that be, hey? Why would some U.S. doctors either refuse to treat Medicaid patients outright, or treat them on a most reduced basis (like dedicating only a single day of the week for seeing Medicaid patients)? Why would that be, hey? Why would low(er) income Americans be categorized in such a way? Surely it's not cause they're "takers and not makers", right?

.

.

Another interesting tidbit related to my earlier Medicaid reference: apparently, if you're on Medicaid, you may not want to live in Dallas... only 36% of the Dallas facilities even accepted Medicaid patients!

And why should they ? Who wants to work for such low reimbursement rates ? They can wait just like the collectivists rationing health care in Canada.

oh my! Are those 70 million any less American... than you? Let me see if I understand this correctly. When you puff-up and claim to have a superior health care system, that's the system that doesn't include the 70 million Americans on Medicaid, that's the system that excludes the 20% that have no insurance coverage whatsoever, that's the system that reflects upon the hundreds of thousands of Americans regularly traveling outside your country for health care... is that right, so far? Any other exclusions/qualifications we should know about?

now... you can keep up your charade, or you could actually address the OP study on the American health disadvantage. Gee, I wonder which way you'll go!

Won't be going to Canada, unlike Canadians going to the US for health and health care.

do you have any numbers yet?

but, c'mon... not Canada you say? How about following your fellow Americans who travel to Costa Rica, Mexico, Thailand, Malaysia, South Korea, etc.? South Korea!... ~35,000 Americans sought health services in South Korea last year! How about Cuba... still embargoed?

but hey now, perhaps you could speak to that relatively recent U.S. study that presented wait times for first appointments/consultation in major U.S. cities (for both general and specialty need): I was particularly taken with the analysis that addressed why, in part, Boston specialty wait times were the highest at 50 days... something about 'RomneyCare' and the required health insurance mandate for Massachusetts residents. Why, imagine that, 'universal access' apparently has an impact on wait times! Buckle-up, buckey... Obama has a plan for you!

you didn't bite at this one... c'mon, like I said... buckle-up!

[bush_cheney2004]

oh my! Are those 70 million any less American... than you? Let me see if I understand this correctly. When you puff-up and claim to have a superior health care system, that's the system that doesn't include the 70 million Americans on Medicaid, that's the system that excludes the 20% that have no insurance coverage whatsoever,

Yep...that's the one....same one that Saudi princes fly in for, skipping the alleged superiority of "Canadian Health Care" at Pickle Lake, Ontario. Same one used by PMs and MPs, and many other Canadians with the means to do so, including referrals by their provincial health "Ministries". Don't confuse the payment "systems" (U.S. has many more than Canada) with actual health care delivery.

Retired accountant Gary Davidge of Calgary started looking into hip replacements two years ago when they cost $45,000 U.S. in Arizona. When the arthritis pain in his hip intensified in December, a medical broker found him a price of $18,800 in Montana.

Although Mr. Davidge's preference would have been to have his operation at home funded by Canada's public health system, the average wait was a year to 18 months, and no one could tell him with certainty when the surgery would take place.

"Hip replacements are a big improvement in one's life," said Mr. Davidge, 67, who is in rehabilitation in Calgary after his Dec. 29 operation.

"For whatever reason, they can't afford to get everybody caught up. Forcing people to wait a two- or three-year time frame is not fair."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/canadians-buy-us-health-care-as-weak-economy-pushes-down-prices/article572476/

that's the system that reflects upon the hundreds of thousands of Americans regularly traveling outside your country for health care... is that right, so far? Any other exclusions/qualifications we should know about?

Choice is good....let me check my preferred provider network for Canadian addresses.....searching...searching....nope...there doesn't seem to be any official contracts with Canadian providers like the provinces have with many U.S. providers. I wonder why ?

do you have any numbers yet?

Yes....see official provincial wait time metrics....immediate service (2 weeks) if you are close to death !

but, c'mon... not Canada you say? How about following your fellow Americans who travel to Costa Rica, Mexico, Thailand, Malaysia, South Korea, etc.? South Korea!... ~35,000 Americans sought health services in South Korea last year! How about Cuba... still embargoed?

How about Canada ? Curious how you did not include your own country, but perfectly understandable.

Edited January 26, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

http://www.theglobea.../article572476/

... "A flailing U.S. economy has helped push down prices for medical procedures". Huh! Is this you relying on a "flailing U.S. economy" to (presume to) make a point? Did you even read your article? Cause, uhhh... I was particularly taken with the article's quote that truly emphasizes your barking; you know, the one from the so-called 'medical broker' who claims to have sent 3500 Canadians to the U.S. for health care... over the last 8 years! Wow! That's a ginormous number! No wonder you won't talk numbers, hey? Keep bringing these type of articles forward... heelarious!

again, your government sanction and complicity is simply an implicit facet of your failed system. Again, of those hundreds of thousands of Americans seeking medical care outside the U.S., in what you colloquially label as "medical tourism", the principal numbers associate to either U.S. citizens seeking cheaper health services, or those with insurance limitations, or those with outright insurance refusals due to pre-existing conditions.

Choice is good....

yes, choice is good; particularly if you're one of the hundreds of thousands of Americans currently traveling outside your country for medical care..... an estimated 750,000 in 2007! Wow, look at those projections, hey? 6 million/2010... 11 million/2013! What was that number your article threw up... oh ya, the guy who 'brokered' care in the U.S. for 3500 Canadians over 8 years.

Yes....see official provincial wait time metrics....immediate service (2 weeks) if you are close to death!

no - there are no wait times in Canada for life-saving care/service. There are 'reasonable-to-extended' wait times for non-life threatening procedures... and there are expected longer wait times for elective surgeries. Your article highlighted the relatively recent case of an Albertan requiring hip replacement surgery. The website MLW member, 'Michael Hardner', provided shows that 50% of Albertan's realize a hip replacement within 3 months, 90% within 10 months. I expect that wait time list is, appropriately, also internally prioritized with respect to impacting pain on patients.

I note, once again, you refuse to bite on my reference to wait times in larger U.S. cities. I thought for sure you'd take the bait over the lengthy Boston wait times being (partially) attributed to 'RomneyCare' (the universally mandated health insurance within Massachusetts). You know... the impact universality has on wait times. Apparently, you want nothing to do with that reference/topic, hey?

[bush_cheney2004]

[/size]... "A flailing U.S. economy has helped push down prices for medical procedures". Huh! Is this you relying on a "flailing U.S. economy" to (presume to) make a point? Did you even read your article?

Of course I read it....the "point" is that health care is like any other business, not some commie entitlement that you want to make it. Lower prices for faster/better care in the USA attracts Canadians who don't want to suffer patriotically in the collectivist queue.

Cause, uhhh... I was particularly taken with the article's quote that truly emphasizes your barking; you know, the one from the so-called 'medical broker' who claims to have sent 3500 Canadians to the U.S. for health care... over the last 8 years! Wow! That's a ginormous number! No wonder you won't talk numbers, hey? Keep bringing these type of articles forward... heelarious!

That's just ONE BROKER.....obviously there are thousands of other brokers. Brokers are a huge part of health care in the U.S., competing nicely alongside government payment systems. It's always about the money...even in Canada.

[/size]yes, choice is good; particularly if you're one of the hundreds of thousands of Americans currently traveling outside your country for medical care..... an estimated 750,000 in 2007!

Good, then we agree that Canadians choosing OOC procedures may be driven by the same incentives as Americans, and their really is nothing special about health care in Canada. We already know it ain't free.

no - there are no wait times in Canada for life-saving care/service. There are 'reasonable-to-extended' wait times for non-life threatening procedures... and there are expected longer wait times for elective surgeries.

You can put as much lipstick on that pig as you want, but wait times are so persistently bad, more government attention is paid to spinning the wait time numbers than to actually reducing the root cause of the problem (which you don't even admit exists).

Your article highlighted the relatively recent case of an Albertan requiring hip replacement surgery. The website MLW member, 'Michael Hardner', provided shows that 50% of Albertan's realize a hip replacement within 3 months, 90% within 10 months. I expect that wait time list is, appropriately, also internally prioritized with respect to impacting pain on patients.

What are they waiting for? Is there a shortage of artificial joints in Canada ? Wanna buy some....we have plenty of them !

Boomers like me are getting real old, but we ain't croaking fast enough, so you better stock up on more artificial parts from the USA.

Hell, just skip that step and follow the Canadians already coming "south" for faster treatment.

Joint replacements - hip and knees - are the most frequent procedures Canadians have in U.S. hospitals, said Mr. Baker. That is despite a $5.5-billion federal initiative to reduce waits for joint replacements and four other procedures. Patients also frequently travel for spinal and heart procedures.

I note, once again, you refuse to bite on my reference to wait times in larger U.S. cities. I thought for sure you'd take the bait over the lengthy Boston wait times being (partially) attributed to 'RomneyCare' (the universally mandated health insurance within Massachusetts). You know... the impact

universality

has on wait times. Apparently, you want nothing to do with that reference/topic, hey?

Does Massachusetts have a dedicated wait time web site ? Is it illegal to purchase private health care insurance ? Does Massachusetts have standing provider contracts with Saskatchewan ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reality is that the USA's excess health care capacity attracts Canadians with and without provincial payment authorization as a way to decompress the political heat that would otherwise be much higher because of wait times and the inadequate services available in remote areas. At many levels, the U.S. is part of Canada's health care "system".

Edited January 26, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

...the "point" is that health care is like any other business, not some commie entitlement that you want to make it. Lower prices for faster/better care in the USA attracts Canadians who don't want to suffer patriotically in the collectivist queue.

commie entitlement? Really? What do you call a system... a country... that negatively impacts the medical care for 70 million low(er) income Americans with limited/constrained Medicaid coverage... that negatively impacts the health of another 65 million Americans without insurance coverage... that causes hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Americans to yearly seek medical care outside the U.S.? What do you call that type of system... that type of country? Is that a system... a country... just doing "business"? Given this threads OP reference to the 'American health disadvantage', how's business doing? You know, the "business" your country significantly spends more money on than any other country. What's the ROI for that failed business, hey?

do you have any numbers yet for the number of Canadians seeking U.S. health care... what are you waiting for?

... I was particularly taken with the article's quote that truly emphasizes your barking; you know, the one from the so-called 'medical broker' who claims to have sent 3500 Canadians to the U.S. for health care... over the last 8 years! Wow! That's a ginormous number! No wonder you won't talk numbers, hey? Keep bringing these type of articles forward... heelarious!

That's just ONE BROKER.....obviously there are thousands of other brokers. Brokers are a huge part of health care in the U.S., competing nicely alongside government payment systems. It's always about the money...even in Canada.

huh! Thousands??? That's not what your article states... the article you provided, the one you linked to. Here, chew on this quote from your article:

And medical brokers - of which there are about two dozen across the country

Thousands hey? Oh my! Oh wait... were you referring to the U.S. brokers assisting the yearly hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Americans to find health care outside the United States? Those brokers? But wait... is this the start of you talking numbers? Will you go beyond barking and make a claim/statement as to the number of Canadians utilizing the U.S. health care 'system'. Are you really going to engage? Finally?

Good, then we agree that Canadians choosing OOC procedures may be driven by the same incentives as Americans, and their really is nothing special about health care in Canada.

nice! Beauty. So... to you, Americans seeking out-of-country health care are simply "incentivized"!!! Oh my! So Americans seeking remedy for exorbitant U.S. medical costs, for insurance limitations, for treatment denial due to pre-existing conditions... and, yes, for wait times in the U.S.... those Americans are just "incentivized"! So, no, we don't agree, at all.

I note, once again, you refuse to bite on my reference to wait times in larger U.S. cities. I thought for sure you'd take the bait over the lengthy Boston wait times being (partially) attributed to 'RomneyCare' (the universally mandated health insurance within Massachusetts). You know... the impact universality has on wait times. Apparently, you want nothing to do with that reference/topic, hey?

Does Massachusetts have a dedicated wait time web site ?

if it doesn't, it sure should... wouldn't you say? Wait for doctors visit as long as 48 days in Massachusetts... and this is just for basic care or first consult appointments!

A new poll of 838 Massachusetts doctors finds patients are still waiting weeks -- in some cases as long as a month and a half -- for non-urgent appointments with primary care physicians and certain specialists.

The average wait ranged from 24 days for an appointment with a pediatrician to 48 days to see an internist. The wait for an internist was actually down slightly, from 53 days in a similar 2010 survey, but the waits for family doctors, gastroenterologists, orthopedists, and ob/gyns increased.

Does Massachusetts have standing provider contracts with Saskatchewan ?

With Saskatchewan??? Do you have some first-hand knowledge of Saskatchewan?

The reality is that the USA's excess health care capacity attracts Canadians with and without provincial payment authorization as a way to decompress the political heat that would otherwise be much higher because of wait times and the inadequate services available in remote areas. At many levels, the U.S. is part of Canada's health care "system".

nonsense! Complete nonsense™. Most remote area 'inadequacies' are managed within Canada... no Canadian is authorized for out-of-country care without confirming availability in other provinces. Notwithstanding the overall number of Canadians seeking or authorized for health care in the U.S. is a minuscule number overall... regardless of how loud you bark and how long you refuse to actually provide numbers. Would you like me to drop that graphic image in here again?

[Shady]

Sure they can...just bring money, same as the Canadians tired of waiting in line back home.

Exactly. Or, they can choose to purchase health insurance. Either way, I don't know why so many people find the concept so hard to grasp.

[Shady]

Careful now BC, Waldo might drop the 11 year old graphic image again! LOL!!!!

[Topaz]

Shady, your statement about people buying health insurance, how high can you go for insurance ? do you think its cheap?

[bush_cheney2004]

Given this threads OP reference to the 'American health disadvantage', how's business doing? You know, the "business" your country significantly spends more money on than any other country. What's the ROI for that failed business, hey?

Pretty well.....about 17% of the largest GDP on the planet. Any questions ?

do you have any numbers yet for the number of Canadians seeking U.S. health care... what are you waiting for?

Why would any Canadians seek health care in the evil USA if they have a veritable health care paradise back home ?

huh! Thousands??? That's not what your article states... the article you provided, the one you linked to. Here, chew on this quote from your article:

Thousands hey? Oh my! Oh wait... were you referring to the U.S. brokers assisting the yearly hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Americans to find health care outside the United States? Those brokers?

Any brokers...maybe you didn't even realize that such brokers even existed. You see, and I hate to burst your Easter Bunny bubble, health care is a....are you sitting down....BUSINESS. Can you believe that ? People actually expect to get paid for rendering health care services and products.

Brokers are middlemen that help close the deal ! Don't you just love capitalism....ooops...maybe you don't ?

But wait... is this the start of you talking numbers? Will you go beyond barking and make a claim/statement as to the number of Canadians utilizing the U.S. health care 'system'. Are you really going to engage? Finally?

I don't have to engage....Canadians already cross the U.S. border for all kinds of things, including health care. Maybe someday I will make it to Pickle Lake for world class cardiac care or bariatric surgery !

nice! Beauty. So... to you, Americans seeking out-of-country health care are simply "incentivized"!!! Oh my! So Americans seeking remedy for exorbitant U.S. medical costs, for insurance limitations, for treatment denial due to pre-existing conditions... and, yes, for wait times in the U.S.... those Americans are just "incentivized"! So, no, we don't agree, at all.

Yet the U.S, has no "legal imperative" for universal health care as in Canada....to the point that you think it is a "right", so complete has the political brainwashing been. No wonder the doctors and nurses fled to the USA (i.e. brain drain)

if it doesn't, it sure should... wouldn't you say? Wait for doctors visit as long as 48 days in Massachusetts... and this is just for basic care or first consult appointments!

It should ? But would only confirm what many Americans already believe about CommieCare....rationing and longer wait times. That might fly in Canada, but not down here, where money talks and collectivist BS walks.

With Saskatchewan??? Do you have some first-hand knowledge of Saskatchewan?

Yes...our Mayo Clinics live in constant fear of the world class health care available in Regina. Hope the Saudis never find out.

nonsense! Complete nonsense™. Most remote area 'inadequacies' are managed within Canada... no Canadian is authorized for out-of-country care without confirming availability in other provinces.

This is patently false, as pre-existing provider networks in the U.S. are already "authorized" via contracts. Hell, Quebec doesn't even recognize cross province health card reimbursements. But that's another issue for another day.

Notwithstanding the overall number of Canadians seeking or authorized for health care in the U.S. is a minuscule number overall... regardless of how loud you bark and how long you refuse to actually provide numbers. Would you like me to drop that graphic image in here again?

Again, why are any Canadians seeking such care in the U.S. from the "system" you tout as "superior". Why would Chretien, Stronach, or Williams make such high profile political choices to seek care in the evil USA....it must have been really important to them...like maybe they wanted the best care available in a more favorable timeline. Jumping the wait queue in Canada would have looked even worse ! LOL!

Edited January 27, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

[waldo]

the vanquished reaching for a Stossel anti-ObamaCare production... and he interviews Gratzer! I note you didn't reply to another MLW members astute comment concerning Gratzer... I'll replay it for you if by chance you missed it!

[waldo]

Careful now BC, Waldo might drop the 11 year old graphic image again! LOL!!!!

a Wannabe drives by! Buddy, the request for more timely data is outstanding... perhaps you could step beyond your drive-by self and actually contribute, hey? As before, it appears the associated (peer review) study is the seminal body of work on the subject... again, it continues to receive citation and, as I've encountered, has appeared in article reference as recent as 2010.

but as I said, in the absence of anyone else in this thread bringing forward any data, that data stands as this threads reference point. Now certainly, the key deflector in this thread has consistently refused (been unable?) to bring forward any data to support his rabid barking. Perhaps you can help the guy out... perhaps there's a Wannabe badge in it for you!