Let's argue why EI reform is horrible again.

[Boges]

What's to stop seasonal workers getting service sector jobs during the offseason instead of sucking off the government teet?

[August1991]

What is it about the fact that Canada and a great deal of it's economic activity revolves around seasons, that Conservatives don't get? It's been like this forever and it's never going to change...

Historically, Canadians saved while working in one season and then used their savings to live during another season. If you want to work seasonally, you are free to do so.

In any case and as I've suggested in other threads, people should be able to capture the economic value of volunteerism and be able to factor it into both their financial accounting and moral justification for existence.

The problem, eyeball, is what value to put on this "volunteerism". I coach a little-league team. What stops me from claiming that my contribution to society is worth at least $100,000?

Garbage picking isn't hard work. Anyone can do it. It's boring and it's manual labour, but it's definitely an expendable job!

The government could, if it wanted to, create jobs for every single Canadian who wanted to work for them. Most of these jobs would be a waste of money and would add very little to the economy, but that never seems to be an issue for you!

Brilliant!

Moonbox, I was about to start a thread arguing that MapleLeaf forum is no longer interesting/active and then I see your post.

To follow your logic, let's combine homeless people and the environment. Why don't squeegee kids clean roadsides instead of smearing a windshield? Heck, to get a place in a shelter for a night, guys should show up with one full, garbage bag.

[Moonbox]

There have been a lot of proposals for people to do some sort of work to receive social benefits. For some reason that never seems to catch on.

Also, eyeball, you need to give that 'paid volunteerism' a rest. The idea is moronic, sorry, not to mention completely contradicting.

[Topaz]

Moonbox, maybe in your area there's many jobs but in other parts of Ontario, the downturn was hit very hard and those areas haven't come back as yet. Someone working say in the service industry, like Timmy's, making 10.25, usually doesn't have the money to move or change jobs, to what? They don't have the money to go back to school and there is an age limit when business won't hire you, even though its against the labour laws. So if one is paying EI and gets laid off and not enough hours what then? Many lower paid workers have limits and the Feds are making it even harder for those workers and the Feds are pushing people on to welfare, which YOU as a taxpayer will be paying for so isn't better for YOU to have these workers either get EI or have a choice of opting out?

[eyeball]

The problem, eyeball, is what value to put on this "volunteerism". I coach a little-league team. What stops me from claiming that my contribution to society is worth at least $100,000?

It's not a problem at all, lots of people, companies and organizations including governments do it all the time.

Google

At 18$ - 21$ per hour you'd have to put in about 5000 hours to be worth $100,000. It's clear you haven't even put in a moments thought to the idea.

Using Stephan Harper's estimation of a volunteer fire-fighter's value $3000 / 200hrs is 15$ an hour.

Source

Edited January 23, 2013 by eyeball

[eyeball]

There have been a lot of proposals for people to do some sort of work to receive social benefits. For some reason that never seems to catch on.

Also, eyeball, you need to give that 'paid volunteerism' a rest. The idea is moronic, sorry, not to mention completely contradicting.

Then how do you explain Harper granting volunteer firemen income exemptions and tax credits for their services?

[Moonbox]

The volunteer firefighter isn't earning a firefighter's hourly wage. He's earning a tax credit and the government has recognized the importance of having volunteer firefighters in reserve in the case of catastrophe. The tax credit is an incentive to make sure that good people fill those positions. They're usually not necessary, but we want them there if they are.

Most volunteer work does not share that criteria.

So if one is paying EI and gets laid off and not enough hours what then? Many lower paid workers have limits and the Feds are making it even harder for those workers and the Feds are pushing people on to welfare, which YOU as a taxpayer will be paying for so isn't better for YOU to have these workers either get EI or have a choice of opting out?

No, it's not better. EI is way more expensive than welfare. I don't want to pay the higher EI benefits for the chronically unemployed and underemployed. As for these people being able to opt out of paying EI, no, I don't agree with that either for the previously mentioned reasons. People making subsistence wages pay bananas in premiums anyways, and the government has no way of knowing whether or not that person will at some point in their life become eligible to collect. Everyone who works pays premiums.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Moonbox

[eyeball]

The volunteer firefighter isn't earning a firefighter's hourly wage. He's earning a tax credit and the government has recognized the importance of having volunteer firefighters in reserve in the case of catastrophe. The tax credit is an incentive to make sure that good people fill those positions. They're usually not necessary, but we want them there if they are.

Most volunteer work does not share that criteria.

I suspect Harper's Government's recognition has more to do with the shine it put's on him. Politicians are always trying to bask in the glow of firemen and cops and what have you. I should know, I was a volly for several years (until my knees started giving out) and I recall a few times I was a prop in a politician's photo op. In any case it's good to see you realize there's no good job worth doing that isn't worth getting real credit for.

Now, consider the hundreds of thousands of tonnes of Japanese tsunami debris washing ashore here in BC, the federal government has asked for volunteers to help deal with it but all they got were two. I'd go if I thought I could be of any use - my knees and hip would probably preclude my doing too much of the really hard grunt work on the beach but I could certainly pilot a clean-up vessel or landing craft if they were available - I also have heaps of first-aid training and lots of field management experience in environmental work similar to a clean-up of this nature. I know lots of people who are laid off but unfortunately EI recipients can't volunteer because that would make them unavailable for work and hence disqualify them from collecting benefits.

Funny dat.

Aside from the menace this debris poses to vessel traffic there will be impacts to Canada's National Park's and coastline and unless it's cleaned up the plastic component will be ground to particle size pieces that will get into the food chain, including our's. The plastic will be reduced to the oily-based substance whence it came only it's much more toxic. It's a catastrophe that actually requires a dedicated paid workforce to deal with.

Maybe the firemen should be tasked with the job.

Edited January 24, 2013 by eyeball

[Moonbox]

I'm not terribly worried about plastic particulate ending up in my food, sorry. This doesn't disintigrate overnight. Also, considering how dangerous the flotsam and jetsam is on our coasts, it's interesting to see how few accidents there have been.

If this was the crisis you claim it to be, the government can hire people to fix it.

[eyeball]

It had the people but it laid them off. Oh well, I guess if EI was really the crisis its claimed to be the government would have fixed it too.

[Moonbox]

So what we can expect is that the garbage from Japan will float around for awhile...sit on beaches etc, and eventually be forgotten. Good talk.

[Housestohomes]

Hi All:

Just learned of this new EI, B.S. I am a contractor and was about to lay off a some carpenters because I have no work for them because of the time of year. They have been employed with me for over 7 years. Good Carpenters are extremely hard to find and even more ..people you can trust. So. these guys that I have spent my time and resources and that I want to come back cannot go on EI for a couple of weeks and have to take another job. As an employer I feel I might as well shut my company down because I do not have the time or resources to retrain someone else only to have it happen again..Thank your government for putting 7 men in a position that then no longer have an guaranteed job to come back to. They may have to go from contractor to contracter to find enough to keep them going to make a decent living...Horray for you a..holes that have full time work and do not realize the importance of skilled trades. The next time your roof blows off or a tree crashes through your roof ..think of all the tradesman that will now have absolutely no choice but to find a job that offers full time year round employement. As an employer I have absolutely no reason now to train an apprentice...I also know I would not hire someone that I know Is only waiting for their ex-employer to hire them back then leave ..That would be nice wouldnt't it...So for all you idiots that think that ei is just for bums..try working outside in -30 to -40 degrees for awhile and see how you enjoy that..Then ask your self who is going to build that nice warm home for you ..or fix my roof that just blew off..well its not going to be that roofer that is now working at MacDonalds..

[Housestohomes]

I also wanted to point out all the advertising about the underground economy...Now that there is no EI basically for our tradesmen...What do u think this will do for the underground. Hi Joe, I have no work for two weeks but will have lots of work when you get back..Thats ok boss I have some work I can do on my own to then...HOW OFTEN DO YOU THINK THIS CONVERSTATION IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE...

DUMMEST GOVERNMENT EVER

[Michael Hardner]

I also wanted to point out all the advertising about the underground economy...Now that there is no EI basically for our tradesmen...What do u think this will do for the underground. Hi Joe, I have no work for two weeks but will have lots of work when you get back..Thats ok boss I have some work I can do on my own to then...HOW OFTEN DO YOU THINK THIS CONVERSTATION IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE...

DUMMEST GOVERNMENT EVER

Well, ok, but take a long look around you - do you see any safe jobs right now ? Pretty much everyone is screaming about fairness in the labour market, but I can think of a few industries that have done worse than the trades over the last little while.

It also seems a little strange for an industry that is doing so well, generally (as far as I know), that people still go on EI as 'seasonal'.

[hitops]

Hi All:

Just learned of this new EI, B.S. I am a contractor and was about to lay off a some carpenters because I have no work for them because of the time of year. They have been employed with me for over 7 years. Good Carpenters are extremely hard to find and even more ..people you can trust. So. these guys that I have spent my time and resources and that I want to come back cannot go on EI for a couple of weeks and have to take another job. As an employer I feel I might as well shut my company down because I do not have the time or resources to retrain someone else only to have it happen again..Thank your government for putting 7 men in a position that then no longer have an guaranteed job to come back to. They may have to go from contractor to contracter to find enough to keep them going to make a decent living...Horray for you a..holes that have full time work and do not realize the importance of skilled trades. The next time your roof blows off or a tree crashes through your roof ..think of all the tradesman that will now have absolutely no choice but to find a job that offers full time year round employement. As an employer I have absolutely no reason now to train an apprentice...I also know I would not hire someone that I know Is only waiting for their ex-employer to hire them back then leave ..That would be nice wouldnt't it...So for all you idiots that think that ei is just for bums..try working outside in -30 to -40 degrees for awhile and see how you enjoy that..Then ask your self who is going to build that nice warm home for you ..or fix my roof that just blew off..well its not going to be that roofer that is now working at MacDonalds..

And yet even where they don't have the same EI system as us, tradesmen still exist and work.

It's too bad that you will have a tough time, and will have a hard time finding skilled workers. But that's not an argument for why my taxes dollars should go to make sure you have an easier time. We all make choices in life, you made yours, and your workers made theirs. Different jobs have different levels of pay, and different risks. I didn't put a gun to your head to make you do carpentry, nor should I be forced to hand out so that workers in your industry don't have to look for work as often.

So now the tree has fallen and crushed my house. Dang. What happens when there are less tradesmen? Exactly what has always happened in any industry when there is less labor.....the price of labor increases. So now its most costly for my home insurance company to cover the repairs. Well....that's why I have insurance. A year later I want to remodel my bathroom just for fun, so I have to pay for that Because of less EI, and therefore less carpenters, its going to cost me more and maybe take longer to complete. Well that's my choice to make, and my decision to live with. There's no reason the government should artificially mess with the labor market to change that decision for me. If its too much....well I just don't do it. That's life, and the natural ebb and flow of the market.

The government should not exist to make sure we can all continue to live the way we want. Life has hard times and good times, it should not be up to me to pay for you to have more of the good times, nor vice versa.

[hitops]

I also wanted to point out all the advertising about the underground economy...Now that there is no EI basically for our tradesmen...What do u think this will do for the underground. Hi Joe, I have no work for two weeks but will have lots of work when you get back..Thats ok boss I have some work I can do on my own to then...HOW OFTEN DO YOU THINK THIS CONVERSTATION IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE...

DUMMEST GOVERNMENT EVER

Still not an argument for why my tax dollars should be used to make sure people do less work on the side.

[jacee]

Still not an argument for why my tax dollars should be used to make sure people do less work on the side.

Your tax dollars don't pay for ei.

Insurance premiums pay for ei.

[eyeball]

Your tax dollars don't pay for ei.

Insurance premiums pay for ei.

Plus you can become self-employed and opt out of EI anytime you choose.

No one is forcing anyone to work for someone else.

[shortlived]

This is exactly why government crown corporations in a community near you are required. The government should have a mandate to employ up to 2 million Canadians in resource, and manufacture to create a strategic reserve, and supply the government as well as do low skill labour which skilled labourers and higher income paid staff are performing. Without this unemployment and EI will continue. With this, instead of EI all that money going to fuel labour for out of work people EI and pogey wouldn't even be in the vocabulary of Canadians. Dropping into the neighbourhood workhouse and getting work immediately, would be a productive, rather than non productive endeavour. EI is just another stooge program. The work house system would replace provincial welfare AND EI for all able bodied people. but this anti socialist government is all about selling the public to debt to the ultrarich and banks instead of efficient program administration that helps the public and makes Canada productive.

50 hours a month alone would replace welfare for those who are temporarily unemployed.

That is perhaps 3 hours a day, which gives ample time to look for other work. It also provides time for training. the government could also run public training for 1 hour to provide first aid, whmis, emergency response, emergency relief, agriculture and other valuable skills to improve the public capacities. Shortages in valuable community service activities, planting in community co-op gardens, installing solar systems, the list goes on and on.

Where there was extra to be done people could work more than 50 hours a month.

Although an optional EI program without any BS should be run and available at a rate based upon claims for people out of work. Not a forced program.

Interested businesses could also buy resources and products produced through the program or place orders with the program to provide and fill needs of companies on a temporary or long term contract basis.

The point is, policing people only encourages organized and intelligent crime.

This while the government wastes money to police.

The key is to structure programs not to need policing, by putting in premium increases based on use in insurance programs. So people don't claim more than they need to. This is simple actuary science.

Hi All:

Just learned of this new EI, B.S. I am a contractor and was about to lay off a some carpenters because I have no work for them because of the time of year. They have been employed with me for over 7 years. Good Carpenters are extremely hard to find and even more ..people you can trust. So. these guys that I have spent my time and resources and that I want to come back cannot go on EI for a couple of weeks and have to take another job. As an employer I feel I might as well shut my company down because I do not have the time or resources to retrain someone else only to have it happen again..Thank your government for putting 7 men in a position that then no longer have an guaranteed job to come back to. They may have to go from contractor to contracter to find enough to keep them going to make a decent living...Horray for you a..holes that have full time work and do not realize the importance of skilled trades. The next time your roof blows off or a tree crashes through your roof ..think of all the tradesman that will now have absolutely no choice but to find a job that offers full time year round employement. As an employer I have absolutely no reason now to train an apprentice...I also know I would not hire someone that I know Is only waiting for their ex-employer to hire them back then leave ..That would be nice wouldnt't it...So for all you idiots that think that ei is just for bums..try working outside in -30 to -40 degrees for awhile and see how you enjoy that..Then ask your self who is going to build that nice warm home for you ..or fix my roof that just blew off..well its not going to be that roofer that is now working at MacDonalds..

Edited February 28, 2013 by shortlived

[jacee]

We're going to pay taxes to support the unemployed and government administration, instead of ei supporting itself through insurance premiums?

I can see some sinkholes in that plan, and no advantages.

[shortlived]

We're going to pay taxes to support the unemployed and government administration, instead of ei supporting itself through insurance premiums?

I can see some sinkholes in that plan, and no advantages.

Not at all. first off 1. EI should be optional not a forced program, so people getting the short end aren't forced to pay other peoples pogey and get no benefits. 2. Private unemployment insurance should also be available for people that don't want the government program. 3. there are duplicate layers that create waste, so rolling social insurance and employment insurance together just makes sense. It would save millions as a baseline by reducing administrative overlaps. It just makes no sense why productive activities aren't done. The EI program is one designed to be abused, now they are going to pay people to defeat the only benefit of the program, that is people who are chronically unemployed or underemployed.

None the less I firmly support my concept. However, by all means explain what the problem with having people work for money is?

As well what is wrong with a premium based insurance program that collects based upon the cost of running the program? Afterall why try to save money with a program that someone is going to get shorted on anyway, and a private plan could compete with as well as fill contracts and government tenders, as well as private tenders that are possible through a workhouse crown corporation.

I've seen too many people not be eligible for EI because of employment times. It just isn't a fair system. People should have access to work.

For anyone benefiting off the program there are a whole lot of people paying EI taxes for nothing.

With work done, taxes get reduced on the flip side because government costs are reduced in the supply and personnel costs chain.

EI is too often used as a government slush fund instead of what it was suppose to be used for. You need to take the slush away wherever it exists and insure it can't be slushed.

There are many many 10's of thousands left to the welfare lines, well over 100,000.

It just makes no managerial sense to reduce efficiency of the able bodied work force.

Jacee it is clear you just don't want people to work for money. You'd rather have people who work seasonally benefit from all the other Canadians who work year round.

There should be a gaurenteed work program to chronic layoffs and people who don't meet the hour threshold, or people who choose not to pay into EI.

Provincial welfare should be eliminated along with transfers for provincial welfare for the able bodied, and instead funds rolled into employment programs which will set out to create resource stockpiles and government needed goods and services. Likewise they would fill government tenders, as well as private tenders, through a workhouse crown corporation.

This dual system for people who meet the profile and those who pay in but miss the mark is total BS, a complete sham for those hard working Canadians who don't get the hours needed to get benefits back for what they pay into, a total ripoff and little more for government slush funding and indirect subsidy to specific industrial sectors.

This program could see benfits continued to be paid into if subscribing, and thus earn work hours for program eligibility.

Edited March 1, 2013 by shortlived

[shortlived]

Ok when the cost of immigrants alone is $23 billion, I don't understand how a program for 2,000,000 Canadians, that provides a subsistence wage of $10/h for 50 hours per month (or $500/month on par or higher than welfare rates) which would cost 1 Billion a month or 12 Billion a year, is so hard to think could actually save money. Welfare in Ontario alone costs 2 Billion a year. The federal government spends close to 7 billion dollars on social program funding just Ontario and already existing federal program spending would equally show how this program would dramatically reduce costs, savings billions of dollars and making the country far more productive and efficient.

In Ontario Welfare recipients get only $227 for basic needs. This amount would more than double funding for basic needs, while dramatically reducing the cost of program administration.. and create products and goods which would reduce government costs in other areas. Such as staffing, why spend 7 billion dollars employing people who manage people when you can spend 7 billion dollars to employ people that make goods that lower your costs.

The possibilities to earn more could exist as more work was available. Although if only 5% of the unemployed workforce actually went to this program, that would provide up to 100 hours to people, which would equate $1000/month for the unemployed far higher than welfare rates in any province in Canada.

This as a suplimental income for the first 2,000,000 Canadians who apply whether they are working or not gives people the chance for extra work, however a priority for the lowest income people. 12 billion a year to reduce poverty is a start, it isn't enough but as a starting point. All people should be able to live above the poverty line. We need to do this by income redistribution, it shouldn't be tax but a poverty eradication mechanism.

You can pay for no work, or you can pay for work. Paying for work, pays value back into the system, something that being taxed for EI you don't have access to doesn't.\

EI needs to work as a premium based annuity fund that will give a little extra to people in retirement who don't draw on the system. It needs to be voluntary, and people need to have work if they need it.

We should reward people who want to work, and giving a mechanism to those who have the least, and those willing to work longer for some extra money when they need it is far better than do nothing meaningful welfare programs and pay for nothing EI programs.

This is only one position read the following to see even more

http://reviewcanada.ca/essays/2012/12/01/scrapping-welfare/

No questions asked, do the work get paid. No overhead for red tape and bureaucracy. Pencil pushers and political manipulation.

Edited March 1, 2013 by shortlived

[Boges]

We're going to pay taxes to support the unemployed and government administration, instead of ei supporting itself through insurance premiums?

I can see some sinkholes in that plan, and no advantages.

Or people could actually look for work during temporary layoff periods.

Apparently under this system the government even e-mails you applicable job listings.

What bugs me is when people say that they shouldn't have to pay EI premiums if they can't claim EI every off season. EI should be set aside for permanent layoffs otherwise, as said before in this thread, it's just a corporate subsidy.

[Fletch 27]

ITs Employment Insurance... Just like you have Insurance for your car... for when bad things happen...

I dont sit in my car waiting for a yearly occuring accident to happen!!! I get the F-out of the way! To those who RELY on EI?? Maybe you were simply too stupid and didnt research your career or chosen field in high-school long enough....

[hitops]

Your tax dollars don't pay for ei.

Insurance premiums pay for ei.

Wrong. When you a person who repeatedly claims ei for months at a time, year after year, every year, your premiums don't even come close to covering what you get paid. Its everyone else who is paying for you.

Insurance programs in the real world do not insure people who continuously make claims year after year. Any insurer who did that, would quickly go out of business.

Employment insurance is a completely fine concept, but it shouldn't be run at the expense of people who do not want it. In other words, it might make sense of it was in private hands and premiums or approval were subject to normal real-world risk assessments. Forcing everyone else to contribute just reinforces false markets and encourages inefficient allocation of human resources in the country.

The best solution would be to lower the payouts or eliminate them, and let people adapt. Most likely, idle laborers in the east would move west which has a DESPERATE need for labor, and the remaining laborers in the east would see their wages go up (because of demand from fisheries, etc) during on-season such that they could make more to carry them through the year. That is how a healthy market operates.

Edited March 2, 2013 by hitops