Canuckistani Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 If there are people who's motivations are what you say they are, then, yes, their influence on the process of changing the status quo has to be minimised. But, that doesn't mean anyone who says delusional thoughts on sovereignty and associated identity shouldn't be allowed to bog down or halt progress is doing so out of a sense of vindictiveness. I certainly didn't read any in Canuckistani's words; only a legitimate concern that those delusions could realistically become a problem at a conference between First Nations representatives and members of the federal Cabinet. Thank you. And for the record, I'm not a CPC supporter, swing way too far left for that. But, if Harper were able to cut this gordian knot, I might just have to vote for him, because that would be a huge achievement. Coming down from your dream castle is a huge knock. I know, I've built my own in the past. But reality must be faced, or we just have a group of welfare dependent people for whom it's never enough. Natives need to have the same status as anybody else in Canada, or we ruin the whole idea of Canada. We have to get there - might as well be now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Mismanagement of the reserve doesn't automatically mean economic impracticality. If a reserve as rich as the Musqueam an't get it together, few can. I guess we can send them all to Chief Louie school, but he's probably too busy looking after his people. And nobody would go anyway, because the chiefs and their cronies on the reserves are doing just fine, thank you. As Adrianne Arsenault showed, the Attawaspikat residents don't actually support Chief Spence and what she's doing, but those people never seem to speak up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 If a reserve as rich as the Musqueam an't get it together, few can... Hence I said changes need to be made to the way reserves are run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Hence I said changes need to be made to the way reserves are run. You going to have Canada go to a sovereign reserve and tell them what to do? That's just paternalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 They have had help. They don't wan the govt to run the show, and neither do you - so who should? They had help forced on them, it's not the same thing. How can a reserve in the middle of nowhere with nothing ever help themselves? I`m talking about immediate problems - not long-term ones. Bottom line with what you are suggesting is just more welfare, for ever. Confronting them may not be palatable, but may be the only option. Provide a carrot - money to relocate - and a stick - no money where currently located. And no relocating to another reserve to do the whole thing over again - we've already tried that. Relocate to where the jobs are, live like everybody else does. You want to buy an apartment building or a bunch of houses and call it your community, feel free. But you have to earn the money to keep that going, not keep relying on handouts. Well, you`re talking about long term problems now. I don`t think welfare for ever is the best approach, but I don`t see any other options until the community is able to help itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 They had help forced on them, it's not the same thing. I`m talking about immediate problems - not long-term ones. Well, you`re talking about long term problems now. I don`t think welfare for ever is the best approach, but I don`t see any other options until the community is able to help itself. It's always immediate problems. That's how we get here. The govt bows to pressure and sends mo money, and the then next place, or the same place has the same problem again. How will you get them to help themselves? They made a mess of the 325 million dollars the mine gave them in contracts, and there is no other economic opportunity in the area. The mine also has a short shelf life. How will your proposal ever change anything - what will be the agent of change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 You going to have Canada go to a sovereign reserve and tell them what to do? I said no such thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I said no such thing. Ok, who's going to make those changes? And what will be the push to do so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 They had help forced on them... Forced on them how? By the Crown in parliament allocating tens of millions of dollars in funds for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 It's always immediate problems. That's how we get here. The govt bows to pressure and sends mo money, and the then next place, or the same place has the same problem again. I don't know that that is how we got here. It seems to me that there was a slow decline that wasn't managed well by... anybody. The money isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. Nobody is capable, or cares enough to lead these people to improve their conditions. How will you get them to help themselves? They made a mess of the 325 million dollars the mine gave them in contracts, and there is no other economic opportunity in the area. The mine also has a short shelf life. How will your proposal ever change anything - what will be the agent of change? They will have to figure out a way to improve things and commit to that. If not, then really all we can do is pay them off / write them off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Forced on them how? By the Crown in parliament allocating tens of millions of dollars in funds for them? No - when the Government appointed a 3rd party to run things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Ok, who's going to make those changes? And what will be the push to do so? Legislators will make the changes. The push could (should?) be (is?) coming from aboriginal people living in dispicable conditions and taxpayers who're tired of their money being wasted on nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 No - when the Government appointed a 3rd party to run things. Ah. Well, I'd say they've had more help than that and it was the mismanagement of that other help that led to the "help" you speak of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Ah. Well, I'd say they've had more help than that and it was the mismanagement of that other help that led to the "help" you speak of. I think we already agreed that just cutting a cheque isn't helping. Furthermore, the previous arrangement seems to be that Indian Affairs had to approve expenses... oh what a mess.... what a pathetic and awful situation... a broken people with a broken culture... mismanaged by themselves and bureaucrats... Edited to add: I'm going to keep reading on this but it's so disheartening that this can happen in our country. Also, the more I read the more it reinforces my belief that tough love would be a disastrous approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) Also, the more I read the more it reinforces my belief that tough love would be a disastrous approach.Why? As far as I can tell the problems are largely self inflicted. Sending the more money is obviously not an option nor will micromanaging compensate for a broken culture. We need to stop pandering to these people and explain that no one in Canada is expected to give up their culture but integration into the mainstream society is the only viable way forward. Edited January 7, 2013 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I think we already agreed that just cutting a cheque isn't helping. No. Though, I think the intent of the cheques was to help; how else would things get paid for within the current system? The cheques should help, too, if they were managed properly, or better, or both. mismanaged by themselves and bureaucrats... That's for certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Why? Why ? In practical terms: Because I fear there would be a violent pushback that would take more money to police and manage, and it would take years to regain trust after that. You can call that situation anything you like, but it's a pragmatic view. As far as I can tell the problems are largely self inflicted. Sending the more money is obviously not an option nor will micromanaging compensate for a broken culture. We need to stop pandering to these people and explain that no one in Canada is expected to give up their culture but integration into the mainstream society is the only viable way forward. Well, good luck with that. How much do you want to allocate for the policing and anti-terrorism squads for the next few decades ? The situation has deteriorated slowly over time, so it will be difficult to undo it. Taking a hard line approach is reckless, does not have political support and will make the situation worse IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 The situation has deteriorated slowly over time, so it will be difficult to undo it. Taking a hard line approach is reckless, does not have political support and will make the situation worse IMO.At some point people have to start saying politically incorrect things. Perhaps that more the job of the media/pundits rather than the job of elected officials. The only reason natives are so delusional when it comes to their place in Canada is because of an adoring media that does not question their nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 At some point people have to start saying politically incorrect things. What things ? Why do people have to start saying these things ? Perhaps that more the job of the media/pundits rather than the job of elected officials. The only reason natives are so delusional when it comes to their place in Canada is because of an adoring media that does not question their nonsense. Do you have examples of that ? How about the CBC leaking a report that makes them look bad - is that adoring ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 At some point people have to start saying politically incorrect things. Perhaps that more the job of the media/pundits rather than the job of elected officials. The only reason natives are so delusional when it comes to their place in Canada is because of an adoring media that does not question their nonsense. THIS. The time for politics is over. What we need now is tough love. WhoGAS if it has support. Clean the mess up, and let history absolve you down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Do you have examples of that ? How about the CBC leaking a report that makes them look bad - is that adoring ?You got to be kidding. CBC has been a Idle No More cheerleader with piece after piece talking about the brave struggle against the 'man'. The news about the audit was an exception as opposed to the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 You got to be kidding. CBC has been a Idle No More cheerleader with piece after piece talking about the brave struggle against the 'man'. The news about the audit was an exception as opposed to the rule. Ok - well I don't watch CBC TV. I heard this piece on the radio this morning, and that's the one example I have. Also, people seem to be quoting figures that are inflated and show the native people in a negative light and they got those presumably from the media too. I'm newly arrived at this issue and still learning. So far, I am still looking at mismanagement at being at the heart of this - even if it's only mismanagement of the communication side - but the government side of this story is pretty murky too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I have always watched the cbc, but the cheer leading over this issue has been awful, yes they broke this story but they had little choice, they couldn't sit on something this big, what if it had been leaked to ctv fter the cbc hadn't reported it and them not reporting it became news. I find the cbc left leaning but this and the recent shootings in the US have shown their true colors, when Terry Milewski spoke to spence...my god, it was sickening, the schmaltzy act he laid on, how concerned he was for her health..she looked like she hadn't lost an ounce. Anyway that national post story about a cbc story that talks about not opening care packages is pretty pathetic, they are playing us, or some of us. But hey the protests are about mother earth, here are they keepers of the land at work. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/manitoba-elk-slaughter-video-prompts-questions-investigation-183034129.html Ive seen that same thing first hand, worse even, many animals indiscriminanatly shot, they are no different than any of us, we would do well to remember it. Don't worry, they would never sell any of that, it's to feed thier families...just like all of the fish being gill netted from Ontario lakes and being sold to restaurants, they are doing it for mother earth. We all know that gill nets are good for the ecosystem. It's a sham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 What things ? Why do people have to start saying these things ? Do you have examples of that ? How about the CBC leaking a report that makes them look bad - is that adoring ? I think if you compared the amount of favourable and unfavourable coverage of this affair it would be heavily tilted in giving Chief Spence favourable coverage.Fair and honest reporting is in short supply these days.For weeks now in the rather left leaning Ottawa Citizen,it has been mostly sympathetic towards Spence.Finally,today I see an article detailing the horrible accounting done by band members.Virtually no details on how millions of dollars have been spent!Theresa Spence is in no way,shape or form,a victim here. I suspect that the Ottawa Citizen will be back to form tomorrow and the audit details will either be buried or not mentioned again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I believe she is, the government has been stalling and dragging their feet just long enough to let china make you its newest citizen. Yay FIPA, when your tax dollars start going to all the law suits china will be throwing at your government, I wonder how quickly you will be able to solve the problem then. Your rights are at the stake just as much, yet they dont want you to figure it out. and by the time you do, it will be too late. Yeah, I didnt actually think you had any solutions and I am sure you would like us all to be quiet and simply go away, but we're not. Threads like this are pathetic and reminds me that I got better things to do. This is why we have so much animosity between Natives and non- natives. Can you spell it out for us,plain and simple?What is Chief Spence's solution that will solve all the problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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