Native chief over 20 days in hunger strike to protest Budget Bill

[g_bambino]

How about: "Let's focus on fixing real problems while the whole shoe-gazing "who are we" discussions go on, and on... and on..."

So, dismiss part of what some of them are saying, but not all of what they`re saying.

In other words, it says "you're wrong, shut up" and changes to the status quo proceed.

[Michael Hardner]

But that is the real problem. If they consider themselves sovereign nations, they're going to demand to be treated as such, as they already have. It's a real problem and it's the first one that needs to be fixed.

How ? How do you fix a pervasive point of view such as that - the identity that these people hold as being distinct from Canada ? How would that would have worked with Quebec ?

So, dismiss part of what some of them are saying, but not all of what they`re saying.

In other words, it says "you're wrong, shut up" and changes to the status quo proceed.

No - it says `lets deal with that later, there are more pressing problems now`

[Canuckistani]

How ? How do you fix a pervasive point of view such as that - the identity that these people hold as being distinct from Canada ? How would that would have worked with Quebec ?

The pov the people hold is up to them. But during any meetings, negotiations etc, it should be made clear that these are not nation to nation events, but Canada dealing with a portion of it's population. The govt should probably seek clarity from the Supreme Court here, as they did with the conditions for Quebec separation. It didn't stop the separation movement, but it made Canada's position clear. Unfortunately up to now the politicians have played the game you're suggesting, which keeps this particular dream castle alive for the FN's. I guess they thought it was cheaper to give them this bit of fluff, but I think it's the core question. If natives are Canadians, subject to Canadian law just as much as the rest of us, it might prevent the inaction when they protest, and would also get Canadians to ask why a certain race of Canadians gets a special deal when we're all supposed to be equal.

[Michael Hardner]

The pov the people hold is up to them.

Wait. Stop. You said that that has to be fixed first. You`re the one who took us down that path, not me. How do you fix it ? I'm asking you.

Unfortunately up to now the politicians have played the game you're suggesting, which keeps this particular dream castle alive for the FN's.

I'm not suggesting anything. Please don't ascribe positions to me simply because I'm asking you about, and disagreeing with your positions.

Nothing seems more dream-like to me than to indicate that native people first have to consider themselves Canadian in order to fix these problems. That is a fantasy, based in a self-righteous desire to punish people IMO. I get that, but it isn't politically tenable and it just causes people to get angry, making it even more difficult to solve the problems at hand.

If you want to know my position it is that the current managers of building solutions to problems need to be replaced by CAPABLE managers. And my position isn't particularly well considered either, it's just based on the complaints I'm reading in the MSM. How to replace the current managers by capable mangers without unseating the current power structure is tricky but possible, without upsetting the current power structure is a little less possible, without having any impact on the current structure and not costing any more money... that's probably impossible in the short term.

[Canuckistani]

It has to be fixed on the govt's side - the govt has to make clear they're not entering nation to nation negotiations. As I say, getting as Supreme Court judgement here if necessary would help to back up this position. I don't want to punish FN's - it's rediculous to say so. I do want us to quit trying to bribe them off to keep quiet tho. If that leads to some civil disruption, let's have it out, see where the dust settles. If most Canadians want to give FN's nation status, or special rights forever, well that's democracy, but I don't. I want all Canadians to be treated equally.

[g_bambino]

No - it says `lets deal with that later, there are more pressing problems now`

Okay; I can agree with that, so long as negotiations do proceed without interruption and distraction by parties claiming they're not Canadian and First Nations are sovereign and apart from Canada. But, it still seems to be as equally dismissive as what you said I was saying and you translated rather pejoritively as "shut up, you're wrong".

[ed.: +, sp]

Edited January 7, 2013 by g_bambino

[Michael Hardner]

Okay; I can agree with that, so long as negotiations do proceed without interruption and distraction by parties claiming they're not Canadian and First Nations are sovereign and apart from Canada.

Get this straight - there's the optics, and there's the real execution of work to help people in need. They are related and they both need to be managed but they are two separate things. The important thing, from what I'm reading here, is for Canada to be using its resources efficiently to help people and not wasting money, resources and lives.

If that ever gets fixed then I don't care what happens with the other issues.

But, it still seems to be as equally dismissive as what you said I was saying and you translated rather pejoritively as "shut up, you're wrong".

[ed.: +, sp]

Well, saying that people have to fix their identities as a first step seems to me to be saying that their identities are wrong. It is pejorative to say to somebody that their identity is wrong. This is why it would be ridiculous for the government to try this tack if they ever want to get anywhere with the real problem.

[g_bambino]

The important thing, from what I'm reading here, is for Canada to be using its resources efficiently to help people and not wasting money, resources and lives.

Yes...

Well, saying that people have to fix their identities as a first step seems to me to be saying that their identities are wrong. It is pejorative to say to somebody that their identity is wrong.

If they're Canadian and say they're not, what they say is wrong. I went back and checked, and I didn't see where I said people "fixing" their identities was a first step; I thought I was pretty clearly saying time and effort shouldn't be wasted entertaining them and their delusions.

[Canuckistani]

I thought I was pretty clearly saying time and effort shouldn't be wasted entertaining them and their delusions.

But that's the thing. You confront their delusions and they will flip out. These delusions are the first thing that needs to be confronted. Placate Them No More.

[Argus]

Interesting. I never saw this CBC report. Evidently, if you were one of those who donated all kinds of stuff to the 'poor freezing natives" it's all stuffed into a trailer because the natives are too lazy to open up the boxes and see what's in them. The chief is an incompetent manager who has no idea how to make anything work. This is the woman so many political whores and has-beens have been paying such glorious homage to.What did Paul Martin call her, an inspiration to us all? Indeed. She and the boyfriend make a big paycheque without any skills or noticeable work ethic.

Nothing in the CBC report, or in Ms. Arsenault’s year-old report, suggest that Ms. Spence or the people around her are stealing money. Instead, they collectively present an image of a massively unproductive, high-cost, sociologically infantilized and dysfunctional welfare state, run by poorly trained and educated locals who have little political legitimacy and no tax base — all of it overseen by an Ottawa bureaucracy that is itself beleagered and semi-functional

http://fullcomment.n...-mismanagement/

Edited January 7, 2013 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

If they're Canadian and say they're not, what they say is wrong. I went back and checked, and I didn't see where I said people "fixing" their identities was a first step; I thought I was pretty clearly saying time and effort shouldn't be wasted entertaining them and their delusions.

This is where I got it from: But that is the real problem. If they consider themselves sovereign nations, they're going to demand to be treated as such, as they already have. It's a real problem and it's the first one that needs to be fixed.

In my opinion, they government should say whatever they have to say in order to get improvements to the people who need it, and to make sure that rampant mismanagement is curtailed.

[g_bambino]

But that's the thing. You confront their delusions and they will flip out.

Yes, quite possibly.

[g_bambino]

This is where I got it from: But that is the real problem. If they consider themselves sovereign nations, they're going to demand to be treated as such, as they already have. It's a real problem and it's the first one that needs to be fixed.

In my opinion, they government should say whatever they have to say in order to get improvements to the people who need it, and to make sure that rampant mismanagement is curtailed.

Well, for the record, those are Canuckistani's words, not mine. But, to be honest, I see his point about some parties approaching the conference table with the attitude first and foremost that they are representatives of a sovereign, non-Canadian people there to discuss as such and will "flip out" at the first point at which their beliefs of sovereignty and associated identity are challenged, thereby unproductively deflecting away from practical matters. Hence, I said I could agree to leaving such beliefs alone and moving on with efforts to change the status quo, but added the caveat that I agree only so long as those people are ignored; or, at least, their baseless claims are. I have doubts, though, that, in reality, they can be so simply dismissed.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited January 7, 2013 by g_bambino

[Canuckistani]

T

In my opinion, they government should say whatever they have to say in order to get improvements to the people who need it, and to make sure that rampant mismanagement is curtailed.

Have you followed what the CBC has uncovered, about empty new houses at Attawapiskat? Boxes of donated items by well meaning Canadians sitting unopened because no volunteers could be bothered found to open them. So how do you get improvements to these people thru a band government that is either that incompetent or malfeasant? Which brings us to the point of the sovereign nation delusion. The only way to fix this as you are suggesting, is to close reserves that have no economic reason for being and integrated natives into the mainstream economy. Otherwise, what you're suggesting is that we should just send them bigger welfare cheques so they can sit in their reservations and not bother us. The former would get the govt accused of paternalism and denying the sovereignity of the FN's. The second is just the status quo with mo money. It all starts with confronting the natives on their sovereignty delusions.

[g_bambino]

Which brings us to the point of the sovereign nation delusion. The only way to fix this as you are suggesting, is to close reserves that have no economic reason for being and integrated natives into the mainstream economy. Otherwise, what you're suggesting is that we should just send them bigger welfare cheques so they can sit in their reservations and not bother us.

Why are those the only two options and what does either have to do with the delusion of aboriginal sovereignty?

[Canuckistani]

Why are those the only two options and what does either have to do with the delusion of aboriginal sovereignty?

What are some other options? How can the govt do anything if natives insist they are sovereign nations? All the govt can do in that case is give them more foreign aid.

[g_bambino]

What are some other options?

Ugh; I knew you'd ask that, and I'd have to say: I don't really know, specifically. However, there must be ways to restructure both reserve governance and the relationship between aboriginal governments and the Canadian one; provincial crowns fairly successfully oversee municipal governance of communities of various different kinds. Erradication usually isn't the only option, and is even less frequently the first one considered.

How can the govt do anything if natives insist they are sovereign nations?

That's a different matter.

[Canuckistani]

Ugh; I knew you'd ask that, and I'd have to say: I don't really know, specifically. However, there must be ways to restructure both reserve governance and the relationship between aboriginal governments and the Canadian one; provincial crowns fairly successfully oversee municipal governance of communities of various different kinds. Erradication usually isn't the only option, and is even less frequently the first one considered.

always easier to shoot down than put forth ideas. The thing is, that if the reserve isn't economically viable, what other option besides giving it welfare could there be? Artificial creating of economic activity, as people have called for. That's just welfare in a suit. IMO support for reserves needs to be eliminated, with funding provided for the natives to transition to a wage economy in a place where there are jobs to be had. If they want to stay on the reserve and live in the traditional ways, let them. You don't need money for that.

[Michael Hardner]

Well, for the record, those are Canuckistani's words, not mine.

My error. Sorry.

But, to be honest, I see his point about some parties approaching the conference table with the attitude first and foremost that they are representatives of a sovereign, non-Canadian people there to discuss as such and will "flip out" at the first point at which their beliefs of sovereignty and associated identity are challenged, thereby unproductively deflecting away from practical matters. Hence, I said I could agree to leaving such beliefs alone and moving on with efforts to change the status quo, but added the caveat that I agree only so long as those people are ignored; or, at least, their baseless claims are. I have doubts, though, that, in reality, they can be so simply dismissed.

[ed.: c/e]

The reality happens behind closed doors, between the parties and then behind THOSE closed doors there`s another set where each side strategizes on their own, and behind that a set of inner circle doors.

Too many people here want to rub peoples` faces in their failures, to punish... to show people how they`re wrong. Politically, it`s a no-go, except - to a degree - for the CPC supporters who like that kind of thing.

[g_bambino]

The thing is, that if the reserve isn't economically viable, what other option besides giving it welfare could there be?

Reserves are like the people who live on them: all different. Some are economically viable; others are not; still others could be, if the way they were run (both locally and in Ottawa) was changed. If, hypothetically, one isn't viable, even after modifications to internal reserve governance and the relationship between First Nations governments and their counterpart in Ottawa, then some tough choices will have to be considered by each party, within the parameters of the constitution. What those choices are depend entirely on the circumstances.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited January 7, 2013 by g_bambino

[Michael Hardner]

So how do you get improvements to these people thru a band government that is either that incompetent or malfeasant?

You find a way to help the people without making the leadership look bad. The government thought they could help, but it seems doubtful to me.

Which brings us to the point of the sovereign nation delusion. The only way to fix this as you are suggesting, is to close reserves that have no economic reason for being and integrated natives into the mainstream economy.

I don`t think that approach is tenable, politically, not in the near term.

The former would get the govt accused of paternalism and denying the sovereignity of the FN's. The second is just the status quo with mo money. It all starts with confronting the natives on their sovereignty delusions.

I recommend helping the people, and taking steps to help them help themselves. That is neither option above. Confronting them is a no-win approach IMO.

[Canuckistani]

Reserves are like the people who live on them: all different. Some are economically viable; others are not; still others could be, if the way they were run (both locally and in Ottawa) was changed. If, hypothetically, one isn't viable, even after modifications to internal reserve governance and the relationship between First Nations governments and their counterpart in Ottawa, then some tough choices will have to be considered by each party, within the parameters of the constitution. What those choices are depend entirely on the circumstances.

[ed.: c/e]

Sure. I think you'll find that a lot of reserves aren't viable. And even the Musqueam reserve in Vancouver, sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars was crying the blues about having substandard housing. Not the chiefs of course, but the ordinary resident. The govt is supposed to give them mo money. Why does a reserve that has lots of money, good income from investments, and is a city bus ride away to jobs for the people need the feds to give them anything?

[Canuckistani]

I recommend helping the people, and taking steps to help them help themselves. That is neither option above. Confronting them is a no-win approach IMO.

They have had help. They don't wan the govt to run the show, and neither do you - so who should? You're going to have to show here that you have found a new way helping them to help themselves. How can a reserve in the middle of nowhere with nothing ever help themselves? Bottom line with what you are suggesting is just more welfare, for ever. Confronting them may not be palatable, but may be the only option. Provide a carrot - money to relocate - and a stick - no money where currently located. And no relocating to another reserve to do the whole thing over again - we've already tried that. Relocate to where the jobs are, live like everybody else does. You want to buy an apartment building or a bunch of houses and call it your community, feel free. But you have to earn the money to keep that going, not keep relying on handouts.

[g_bambino]

Too many people here want to rub peoples` faces in their failures, to punish... to show people how they`re wrong. Politically, it`s a no-go, except - to a degree - for the CPC supporters who like that kind of thing.

If there are people who's motivations are what you say they are, then, yes, their influence on the process of changing the status quo has to be minimised. But, that doesn't mean anyone who says delusional thoughts on sovereignty and associated identity shouldn't be allowed to bog down or halt progress is doing so out of a sense of vindictiveness. I certainly didn't read any in Canuckistani's words; only a legitimate concern that those delusions could realistically become a problem at a conference between First Nations representatives and members of the federal Cabinet.

[g_bambino]

And even the Musqueam reserve in Vancouver, sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars was crying the blues about having substandard housing.

Mismanagement of the reserve doesn't automatically mean economic impracticality.