First nations patiences waning

[g_bambino]

...favour.

They want to meet with the Queen because that's who they signed the treaties with. Seriously?

Obviously that's not why they want to meet with the Queen (but which one does? I've only heard demands to meet with the Governor General); the Queen is old, but not 250 years so. First Nations sometimes want to meet with the Queen because the treaties are between the First Nations and the permanent and non-partisan Canadian Crown, not the transient and partisan Canadian government, and the monarch is the personification of the Crown. The Queen also often obliges and meets with them, as she's well aware of her relationship with First Nations. However, nobody should expect the Queen to be in the context anything more than a sympathetic ear, a public relations tool, and a figure who can impress some not insignificant pressure on the government behind the scenes (exercising her Bagehotian rights to advise, encourage, and warn); everyone should know this is a democratic constitutional monarchy and policy decisions, including those relating to how First Nations are dealt with, are the responsibility of the ministers of the Crown and the elected chamber of the legislature they are accountable to.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited January 15, 2013 by g_bambino

[WIP]

The stupidity level in this thread has got too high to bother posting any more rebuttals. What's the point of getting sandbagged with idiocy?

[Accountability Now]

They sent a letter to the Queen asking her to weigh in on this matter. I'm not making it up. It's a fact

[Michael Hardner]

The stupidity level in this thread has got too high to bother posting any more rebuttals. What's the point of getting sandbagged with idiocy?

WIP - don't despair, just argue pragmatism.

None of the people on this thread can reasonably say that the FN will be getting FN a year or living in teepees when the dust settles. Further to that, there won't be a military crackdown to push the tension level even higher - unless the Harper government is that stupid.

A lot of the stupidity you read on here is just emotional venting. It often comes from angry people who don't understand how things work, and are easily susceptible to having their buttons pushed by the attention-hungry anger machine that the media can sometimes be.

Argue reality on this one and you will win out. If heaven forbid there is a crackdown, there will be even more of a need for saner opinions.

[jbg]

Favour

Wrong. Dead wrong. That is not English.

Obviously that's not why they want to meet with the Queen (but which one does? I've only heard demands to meet with the Governor General); the Queen is old, but not 250 years so. First Nations sometimes want to meet with the Queen because the treaties are between the First Nations and the permanent and non-partisan Canadian Crown, not the transient and partisan Canadian government, and the monarch is the personification of the Crown. The Queen also often obliges and meets with them, as she's well aware of her relationship with First Nations. However, nobody should expect the Queen to be in the context anything more than a sympathetic ear, a public relations tool, and a figure who can impress some not insignificant pressure on the government behind the scenes (exercising her Bagehotian rights to advise, encourage, and warn); everyone should know this is a democratic constitutional monarchy and policy decisions, including those relating to how First Nations are dealt with, are the responsibility of the ministers of the Crown and the elected chamber of the legislature they are accountable to.

[ed.: c/e]

But the question is, to what extent are those treaties an exception to Canadian independence? Edited January 15, 2013 by jbg

[Accountability Now]

Not sure exactly what you mean by an exception to Canadian Independence. However, the treaties that were signed by the Natives were with "The Queen and any of her successors". The Queen is still the symbolic head of Canada but anyone that has followed Canadian history in the last 100 years knows that the PM is her successor as the real head of Canada.

Obviously I was being sacastic when I said the Natives should live in Tipis again. I know that is not reality but neither is their approach to all of this. To be honest....I have never been one to care for anything political. I always assumed that both sides had a case and that I really didn't need to stick my head out just to add an uninformed opinion. This recent Native issue has got me vested though. After seeing the games they played with this fake hunger strike. And then of course the fake meeting requests. "We want a meeting with the PM" OK here he is. No....we want a meeting with the GC. Ok...here he is. No...we want a meeting with both (and we sent a letter to the Queen asking her to attend). Oh...and now we're going to boycott the meeting that we called for. And we're going to blockade the PM's office.

Michael.....this is reality. We are dealing with a group that just wants to fight. Its like dealing with children! There are many reasonable cheifs out there and native people who are being drowned out by these cheifs.

[g_bambino]

But the question is, to what extent are those treaties an exception to Canadian independence?

I don't understand the question; an "exception" to Canadian independence?

[g_bambino]

The Queen is still the symbolic head of Canada but anyone that has followed Canadian history in the last 100 years knows that the PM is her successor as the real head of Canada.

Uuuuhhh... No.

And then of course the fake meeting requests. "We want a meeting with the PM" OK here he is. No....we want a meeting with the GC. Ok...here he is. No...we want a meeting with both (and we sent a letter to the Queen asking her to attend). Oh...and now we're going to boycott the meeting that we called for. And we're going to blockade the PM's office.

Actually, Specne was pretty consistent with her demand that she meet with the Governor General and Prime Minister together. The idea isn't inappropriate in any way; there's nothing preventing the prime minister and governor general from being in the same room as each other; it happens frequently. However, if Spence wanted any kind of real changes in policy and law, she should have known it would be unconstitutional for the Governor General to participate in discussions relating to either in a setting other than just he and his ministers alone. At best, all Johnston could do in the situation Spence wanted was sit silently and apart from everyone else, so as to give no implication of favoritism to any side. Not impossible, but a relatively useless contribution to the project of achieving pragmatic solutions to First Nations' problems, which makes one suspect that Spence either doesn't want actual solutions or greatly misunderstands the concepts of constitutional monarchy and responsible government.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael.....this is reality. We are dealing with a group that just wants to fight. Its like dealing with children! There are many reasonable cheifs out there and native people who are being drowned out by these cheifs.

Ok - to clarify then you were speaking rhetorically about offering them $5/year.

[Accountability Now]

Yes I was speaking rhetorically. The $5 per year has inflated to whatever the sum is today. And I am fine with that. What I'm not fine with is the land claims. They gave that up as part of the deal. If they want to renegotiate then the compensation is on the table too.

I'm not in favor of the government or against the natives. I am only in favor of honoring the deals made....which is something to be said to both sides.

[DogOnPorch]

How does 20 bucks sound?

[Accountability Now]

Make it $40 and we have a deal!

[WIP]

WIP - don't despair, just argue pragmatism.

Thanks, I try to present the obvious: that there's another side to the story. But, I haven't read much on aboriginal issues prior to this controversy that followed the Idle No More protests. I would have preferred to just leave the issue to those who know more about first nations, and treaties and all of the issues; but there just isn't enough push back against what I consider a deliberate smearing of natives by right wing media here in Canada. This is something unprecedented, as far as I am aware of. I've always heard people...especially those from up north, bitching about lazy, goodfornothing indians; but it was always a submerged talk that only went on among like-minded. I don't recall hearing it on a 24 hr news channel, or found in opinion pieces and comments in major newspapers belonging to SunMedia and Canada.com. What these house organs of the corporate world have done is made racism legitimate, by putting it on the front page and editorial pages of their newspapers. This is what is the most scary right now: what is behind this new aggressiveness and belligerence by oil, mining and other business interests in Canada? Looking at the big picture....especially the problem of trying to keep up oil production levels....it looks like a push against stubborn native reserve communities that have not welcomed unbridled exploitation of their lands. If that's not the reason, the circumstantial evidence sure points in that direction!

None of the people on this thread can reasonably say that the FN will be getting FN a year or living in teepees when the dust settles. Further to that, there won't be a military crackdown to push the tension level even higher - unless the Harper government is that stupid.

Well, if they were smart, they would not have tried to create a crisis in the first place! I wouldn't be surprised if they started strategizing by working to isolate and smear their opponents....that's how Harper has dealt with Liberals, NDP, environmentalists, unions, and others who stand in the way of Conservative objectives. But, this time they have bumped up against a better organized, and united target. So, there's a lot of people cheering from the sidelines, hoping that the natives can do what other groups have failed to do, who have been steamrolled by Harper and his ruthless corporate cohorts.

A lot of the stupidity you read on here is just emotional venting. It often comes from angry people who don't understand how things work, and are easily susceptible to having their buttons pushed by the attention-hungry anger machine that the media can sometimes be.

But, like I said, the low information rabble-rousers don't have to get their arguments from a few isolated, rightwing bloggers now, when it's part of the news and opinion on the majority of private media in this country.

Argue reality on this one and you will win out. If heaven forbid there is a crackdown, there will be even more of a need for saner opinions.

That sounds a little ominous! What sort of crackdown might be on the way?

[WIP]

On the subject of rightwing media, I noticed that there is a rally planned for this Saturday at the Toronto Sun, for those who live close by and would like to let Sun Media know how they feel:

Activist Communique: Putting Racism to Rest:! A Rally against the Toronto Sun media! - Saturday

Putting Racism to Rest: A Rally against the Toronto Sun media! - Saturday

The Deets:

Saturday January 19, 2013

2:00 pm – 4:00 pm

The Toronto Sun

1-333 King Street East

The Call Out:

A few bullet points in the article which can be followed up on by more indepth research:

Myth #1: First Nations (FN) chiefs are rich.

Truth: They earn an average of $36 K; less than the Canadian average of $46 K.

Myth #2: The cause of the FN problems are the chiefs corruption.

Truth: First Nation governments have the lowest level of corruption in Canada 3%. The federal government has over 10% corruption. The cause of the problems instead come from chronic underfunding and several centuries of racist attempts at assimilation and genocide by the Canadian government

Myth 3# Canada subsidizes the FN who always has their hand out for more money.

Truth: The First Nation subsidize Canada by tolerating resource extraction (lumber, fishing, mining, oil)) from their land. Compared with the - $500 billion annual takings of these industries, the meagre - $9 billion the FN receive from the government is insignificant.

Myth #4: Native people of Canada are a thing of the past and should just assimilate like the rest of us.

Truth: The First Nations in Canada have never gone away, despite centuries of oppression, including genocide. They are alive and well, and do not want to assimilate into a racist and genocidal society. They add more to Canada by not assimilating and will reject all attempts to do so.

[Accountability Now]

Not sure I agree with any of these but its like you said....it needs more indepth research. Not to sound like a broken record but again they talk about their land. Are they saying that $500 billion dollars is produced from the reserves? Any other land is not their land as they signed it way in the treaties. Or did they forget?

Myth 1 is a bit sketchy too as we already know about some cheifs salaries.

[g_bambino]

Putting Racism to Rest

And there's that tattered, old race card again; always pulled out when a legitimate argument can't be mounted against criticisms that aren't racist.

[g_bambino]

Brazeau (whatever else he may be) must be a self-hating aboriginal, being so racist towards his own kind and all...

As the independent audit in Attawapikat has shown us, accountability or the lack thereof is one issue that needs to be addressed now. Under the Indian Act, nothing forces the hands of the chiefs to be accountable to their own members. Let me state for the record that many are open and transparent. We know who they are, but there remains many questions as to those who are not. Chiefs and councils receive funding, make the decisions as to how it is spent and who will have access. Imagine receiving a $3M budget for post-secondary education funding but only spending $500,000? Well, it happens, because chiefs can spend money where and how they want.

...Politicians have been afraid to ask questions for fear of being labelled as racist or worse. If Canadians are not aware that this is happening, how can they apply pressure to their MPs to act? When I see pictures of children living in poverty-stricken situations, I ask: is there accountability? If not, why not?... How can anyone come to the conclusion that more money is needed when no Canadian, including First Nations Canadians can answer three simple questions: Where is the money going, is it being properly spent and do community members have access to the funds provided?

Accountability in First Nations is the key to progress

[Accountability Now]

Touche Bambino!

[Sleipnir]

A poll is out on how Canadian feels about Spence.

http://www.globalnew...9231/story.html

Her approval rating is 29%.

The protest has done nothing but to raise awareness of the reserves mismanagement of federal funds.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Sleipnir

[Boges]

Looks like most Canadian's patience is waning?

Edited January 16, 2013 by Boges

[WIP]

Not sure I agree with any of these but its like you said....it needs more indepth research. Not to sound like a broken record but again they talk about their land. Are they saying that $500 billion dollars is produced from the reserves? Any other land is not their land as they signed it way in the treaties. Or did they forget?

Myth 1 is a bit sketchy too as we already know about some cheifs salaries.

I didn't post them as a presentation of the "real truth" or something of the sort. But, they likely present a better starting point to find the truth on these issues than the sources motivated by a covetous desire to get at resources on native lands that aren't being fully exploited yet.

I am just getting sick of reading endless copies of regurgitated propaganda that is usually sourced at one of the NP or Sun blogs. That's why I said I find it very alarming that the right side of MSM here in Canada has unmistakeably started to plot a course to denigrate the character of native peoples and the legitimacy of their land claims. The tactics are exactly like the dog whistle racist appeals that more respectable right wing sources engage in in the U.S.. They try to avoid stating the obvious, in case they are called before a hearing of some sort; but there is no mistaking where the trail of breadcrumbs leads to when you read how those articles are read and interpreted by re-posters here! Like I said: I can't recall the business-funded right wing making these kinds of hostile moves against natives before. They may have always thought about native peoples along these lines, but they avoided attacking their legitimacy and preferred to focus on other subjects. Like I said, the issue now is that mining, oil and other resource companies are in a state of urgency because the continued increasing demand for energy and resources has exhausted much of the resource base that isn't on contested land, so the resource industries are moving in to the final frontier....so to speak.

Much of the success of right wing slander against natives is made possible by the colossal ignorance of Canadian history of most people. Although our history classes were extremely Eurocentric years ago, we still got the basics; such as the fact that we did not fight Indian wars up here to drive natives off their lands. Canada was filled with big, open spaces, and there were only about 10% of us compared to the Americans invading the U.S. in waves of immigration, so we had to be a lot more generous in writing and applying territorial agreements than the Americans.

I prefer posting text, rather than video links on subjects, but this 7-part collection of the John Ralston Saul lecture:

would be a good place to start for those who have the time and the inclination for a more well-rounded look at early Canadian history.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The tactics are exactly like the dog whistle racist appeals that more respectable right wing sources engage in in the U.S......

How ironic...bemoaning the state of education for Canadian history while invoking an American comparison for "racist appeals" as if none are to be found in all of Canada's past...or present

Edited January 16, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[g_bambino]

I find it very alarming that the right side of MSM here in Canada has unmistakeably started to plot a course to denigrate the character of native peoples and the legitimacy of their land claims.

Can you in any way provide evidence so this reads less like the hyperbole of a conspiracy theorist?

Much of the success of right wing slander against natives is made possible by the colossal ignorance of Canadian history of most people.

Putting aside the questionability of this "success" you speak of, ignorance plays well for the extremes of any side in this matter, including the people screaming "racist!!" every time someone criticises the way some aboriginal chiefs and their councils run their reserves.

[PIK]

Wrong.

Wrong. Aboriginal rights exist at their local organization level as well as internationally.

You are just being ignorant.

You are just being fascist. You can't accept natives have their rights because they existed before Canada did. They made Canada and gave it its name from their language not the other way around. They gave the French a place to live. It was the English who opted to fight for the land. They are occupying they don't own anything. Treaties which must be followed exist to give the Crown right to use the land Canada is within. You are just in denile if you ignore that fact. Fabricate your reality it doesn't make it any more real. Geuss what, those treaties were broken and the crown lost its title. If they obey the treaty the title can be mainained, its just like any other lease. You play by the rules you can play you don't, you can't.

Its the natives who gave Europeans a right to exist not the other way around. Europeans recognized the requirement to coexist because natives were too valuable and did no wrong to deserve being at war in many cases. It was colonial occupation that has bloomed. Natives have been very welcoming both by their spirit and their necesity. It is sad you have to resort to use of force to rob people of their land. If we can agree it can be shared for mutual benefit. It was all about trade not ownership.

The natives saved Canada, remember that. You are utterly ignorant of the past.

When the euros arrived here the indian was living in the stone age. They had not invented the wheel or has domestcated animals yet. And thier traditions were raping, pillaging, genocide and slavery. And no land was stolen it changed hands as it has all over the world since the beginning of time. So enough of the BS. Edited January 16, 2013 by PIK

[g_bambino]

The protest has done nothing but to raise awareness of the reserves mismanagement of federal funds.

It has. But, that, in turn, has drawn attention to flaws in the Indian Act.

[ed.: +]

Edited January 16, 2013 by g_bambino