Gay "in denial"....and Gay-to-straight theraphy

[betsy]

Thank you Bryan. Yes, some of these posters cannot get beyond our religion-based discussions from other topics. They don't have the capacity, I guess, to set aside something and deal with the real issue at hand.

They are interpreting what they read in this topic the way they want to see it.

Actually, the news about a judge putting a stop on the gay conversion theraphy ban got my attention last week....and that came out here partly due to the comment made by WIP.

BC Chick criticizes my article for being old. Well, old or not - the judges' ruling is recent. And if he's talking about conversion being done to minors, I take it then that it is allowed for adults?

My view is about Gays - adult gays - who, for some reasons only known to them, are not happy about being gay.

Most posters here seem to lump all these individuals together and conveniently place a label on all these gays that says : "PRESSURED BY RELIGION." What a close-minded way of thinking!

It is actually an insult to all gays who are struggling with their orientation. Each one has their own background or history - they could've been born gay, and they could've also been misled to think that they were gay, as children or youths.

Some may've been perhaps victims of abuse (like those pedophile priests abusing children) that got them messed up and confused as adults! WE DON'T KNOW!

And yet, you guys are all lumping them all together and branding them all - stereo-typed - because of your political or social convictions. And you try to pass that off as an intelligent basis for discussion? Shame on you!

I question the motive of the Gay Movement to want to ban this source of help for those adults who feel trapped in their current situation as gays.

What's the diference between a woman who feel trapped in a woman's body and want to become a man???

You may all scream - along with the gay movement - that it is harmful for gays to get into theraphy! That's easy for you to say since not anyone of you perhaps had even attended such theraphy even once.

If it works for some - like the site I gave you for ex-gays who got themselves a support system for those who face the same predicament - then obviously it works! It may not work for everyone, but the fact shows that it works for some.

Edited December 10, 2012 by betsy

[WIP]

I certainly understand some people's distrust of a church-based conversion organization. I'm also seeing quite clearly that some of the posters here have argued with Betsy so often that they now have a type of oppositional defiance disorder when it comes to topics she discusses.

yeah right! You're going to give us your professional assessment that opposing betsy's continual trotting out of discredited evidence is oppositional defiance disorder.....or maybe it's because most of us noticed that the experts who study these things abandoned those theories 40 years ago.

. I know several people who have changed (in both directions). In one case I lesbian woman I know who was as out as it comes, in a long term live-in relationship with another woman, left that woman to go and marry a man.

If you're referring to women changing sexual orientation, you might have a case...I mentioned the same thing the last time I posted a comment here; but if you're going to claim that men can change sexual orientation....bullshit!

Science News...

from universities, journals, and other research organizations

Study Suggests Difference Between Female And Male Sexuality

June 13, 2003

The study's results mesh with current research showing that women's sexuality demonstrates increased flexibility relative to men in other areas besides sexual orientation, according to Chivers.

"Taken together, these results suggest that women's sexuality differs from men and emphasize the need for researchers to develop a model of the development and organization of female sexuality independent from models of male sexuality," she said

.

The study's four authors include Bailey and three graduate students in Northwestern's psychology department, Chivers, Gerulf Rieger and Elizabeth Latty.

"Since most women seem capable of sexual arousal to both sexes, why do they choose one or the other?" Bailey asked. "Probably for reasons other than sexual arousal."

[Bryan]

but if you're going to claim that men can change sexual orientation....bullshit!

If you're going to claim that men can't change sexual orientation....bullshit! I've seen it, I know several who have done it -- in both directions.

[betsy]

yeah right! You're going to give us your professional assessment that opposing betsy's continual trotting out of discredited evidence is oppositional defiance disorder.....or maybe it's because most of us noticed that the experts who study these things abandoned those theories 40 years ago.

Never mind the lecture about "professional assessment" WIP. Deal with your stated "factual assessment" of Cruise, Travolta and Cameron....whom you practically claimed to be "gays in-denial."

Where's your source?

[cybercoma]

I certainly understand some people's distrust of a church-based conversion organization. I'm also seeing quite clearly that some of the posters here have argued with Betsy so often that they now have a type of oppositional defiance disorder when it comes to topics she discusses. It's really manifesting itself strongly in this thread, where we have several intelligent posters claiming that orientation cannot be changed. It's a ridiculous position, people changing is an absolute fact. I know several people who have changed (in both directions). In one case a lesbian woman I know who was as out as it comes, in a long term live-in relationship with another woman, left that woman to go and marry a man.

Again... sexuality is not a binary of gay and straight.

[Topaz]

Dr.OZ did a show on this where a man who treats people who are gay but want to be straight, He 's says he was gay but now he's married with kids and that he can change any person, BUT other experts on the show say that not true and some of these people went through this theraphy tha tit doesn't work and it can be dangerous for some people. http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/reparative-therapy-expert-opinions

[Sleipnir]

I'm also seeing quite clearly that some of the posters here have argued with Betsy so often that they now have a type of oppositional defiance disorder when it comes to topics she discusses.

Well clearly you have not seen how she debates.

It's a ridiculous position, people changing is an absolute fact.

People change yes, but not orientation.

You may all scream - along with the gay movement - that it is harmful for gays to get into theraphy! That's easy for you to say since not anyone of you perhaps had even attended such theraphy even once.

The therapy is a fraud based on pseudoscience with absolutely 0% success rate.

If you're going to claim that men can't change sexual orientation....bullshit! I've seen it, I know several who have done it -- in both directions.

Lol just because you witness something doesn't make it self-explanatory.

Never mind the lecture about "professional assessment" WIP. Deal with your stated "factual assessment" of Cruise, Travolta and Cameron....whom you practically claimed to be "gays in-denial."

Where's your source?

lol now you're suddenly changing the topic?

Edited December 10, 2012 by Sleipnir

[cybercoma]

Funny how you never hear about straight people really suffering because they want to be gay. You know, where's all of this psychological help for those poor suffering straights that want to be gays?

[WIP]

If you're going to claim that men can't change sexual orientation....bullshit! I've seen it, I know several who have done it -- in both directions.

Still not buying it! The standpoint that gay men can change or be forcibly changed in sexual orientation is not far removed from the more traditional view years ago, that these are either evil or diseased people who must either be put to death or banished to gay ghettos in the major cities. The stories from the Bible Belt indicate that teenage boys in fundamentalist families aren't given a choice in the matter before they undergo whatever sort of gay reversion therapy is prescribed; they have to go through it whether they want to or not. And I don't believe you put a homosexual man into gay therapy and come out with a heterosexual afterwards. All you get is a gay man who keeps his attractions secret and tightly closeted. That would explain the high number of evangelical sex scandals over the years that involve secret gay affairs or the molesting of boys.

[GostHacked]

I certainly understand some people's distrust of a church-based conversion organization. I'm also seeing quite clearly that some of the posters here have argued with Betsy so often that they now have a type of oppositional defiance disorder when it comes to topics she discusses. It's really manifesting itself strongly in this thread, where we have several intelligent posters claiming that orientation cannot be changed. It's a ridiculous position, people changing is an absolute fact. I know several people who have changed (in both directions). In one case a lesbian woman I know who was as out as it comes, in a long term live-in relationship with another woman, left that woman to go and marry a man.

The person who turned straight was never gay to begin with. And vice-versa. It's something we call 'denial'.

[WIP]

Never mind the lecture about "professional assessment" WIP. Deal with your stated "factual assessment" of Cruise, Travolta and Cameron....whom you practically claimed to be "gays in-denial."

Where's your source?

My source is the headlines on the supermarket tabloids. Do you think I really give a damn one way or another? This is only an issue for those of your persuasion, bent on persecuting homosexuals, and a small, and very unfortunate segment of self-hating gay collaborators who assist the process.....the Republican Party wouldn't be able to function without them!

But, just to waste more time on your side-trolling issue, a quick search reveals Tom Cruise is #1 on Perez Hilton's poll on the most likely still-closeted gay Hollywood celebrities....he even ranked ahead of Jake Gylenhaal...not that's saying something! John Travolta wasn't in the top 10, and a further waste of my time reveals that he has successfully sued the author of a biography that attempted to out him, although he still has another potential outing waiting in the wings, as a former pilot is seeking release from a confidentiality agreement he signed when employed by Travolta, so he can have the chance to write his own book and spill his guts. And your hero - Kirk Cameron...whatever that creepy looking relationship is that he has going with Ray Comfort, they are still dicks for a whole lot of reasons.

But, if you want gay evangelical pastors and church leaders who were outed mostly from their own behaviour (Ted Haggard anyone), there sure are a whole lot of them on the evangelical scandal wiki page. It seems that sex scandals outnumber money and fraudulent healing scandals, and the sex scandals are at least evenly divided between gay and straight....although when it involves interfering with children and minors, it hardly makes a difference! It's just another aspect of the way sheer hypocrisy and fraud can bubble to the surface when people are made to do things that are totally unnatural: like not have sex, or not masturbate, or not even think about sex, as that is equal to actually doing it in the most paranoid, neurotic interpretations.

[Moonlight Graham]

If a gay person wants to have this theraphy to help him overcome his gayness, why shouldn't society respect his wish? After all society respect the wishes of those who'd want to become the opposite sex.

This is a fair enough point. Then again, is this therapy recognized as being effective or helpful at all by the majority of psychologists/psychiatrists? IMO this is just repressing one's natural desires, not "curing" anything. How "healthy" can this be? This said, why should health professionals be allowed to practice such unhealthy techniques.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

[guyser]

This brings up the Gay-to-Straight conversion. Yes, there are theraphy sessions that's said to help gays who want to become heterosexuals.

Only an idiot , or religious a-hole would believe any of that.

But then again, they believe god made the world.

SOS....stuck on stupid, the whole lot of them,.

[Guest American Woman]

If you're going to claim that men can't change sexual orientation....bullshit! I've seen it, I know several who have done it -- in both directions.

You many have seen men change who they have sex with, but that doesn't mean their "sexual orientation" has changed - it just means that their sex partners have changed.

[guyser]

. You know, where's all of this psychological help for those poor suffering straights that want to be gays?

At church sunday mornings.

Of course none of them have an accreditted degree , but by george, they have the bible/koran/pasta recipe.

BTW, if you nail a green jellybean to the wall out your front door you will not become nor father gay children.

It works, I never went gay and no kids are gay.

(be careful though, the Yellow jelly beans keep Polar Bears away...and really, who wants a Polar Bear at the front door)

Edited December 10, 2012 by guyser

[Guest American Woman]

At church sunday mornings.

Just for the record, many churches are supportive of gays - and some atheists aren't.

[msj]

Just for the record, many churches are supportive of gays - and some atheists aren't.

Perhaps you mean "many" as in "more than a few."

According to polls, however, it is far more likely for an atheist to be supportive of gays than for a church.

88% of non-religious people (which includes atheists, agnostics, non-religiously identified) are for gay marriage versus 38% for Protestants and 51% of Catholics (must be "bad" Catholics).

Sure, exceptions can be found anywhere for anything.

Once mainstream Churches start offering to perform marriage ceremonies for gays then you will have a point.

For now, you don't.

[WIP]

Just for the record, many churches are supportive of gays - and some atheists aren't.

But, atheists who despise homos have to accept wherever the trail of evidence leads to. Atheists cannot claim to have divine or divinely inspired 3000 year old texts to apply as the absolute authority on the subject. Where it becomes especially damaging, is when Christian converts in Africa, accept the dogmas they learned from western evangelists and apply what the Bible says to the letter of the law, i.e. putting homosexuals to death in Uganda.

[Guest American Woman]

Once mainstream Churches start offering to perform marriage ceremonies for gays then you will have a point.

For now, you don't.

I have a point right now.

[jacee]

BTW, if you nail a green jellybean to the wall out your front door you will not become nor father gay children.

It works, I never went gay and no kids are gay.

(be careful though, the Yellow jelly beans keep Polar Bears away...and really, who wants a Polar Bear at the front door)

Do green and yellow jellybeans keep the gay polar bears away?

I think if gay people want to live a heterosexual lifestyle, that's their choice ... so long as they're honest with their spouse. A man who 'shrinks' from the touch of a woman damages the woman psychologically if he's trying to pretend. If he's honest prior to entering the relationship, that's different.

People are in relationships for all kinds of reasons that may have little to do with sex or sexual fidelity. Honesty is what's important ... and condoms.

Edited December 10, 2012 by jacee

[Mighty AC]

Certainly, way more non-religious people are supportive of equal rights; but, there are large numbers of supportive believers as well. That point makes the fact that some still use the Bible as justification for hate even more despicable though.

[Sleipnir]

Then again, is this therapy recognized as being effective or helpful at all by the majority of psychologists/psychiatrists?

We're talking about vulnerable minors that are being subjected to abuse by their peers.

In fact, the creator (Dr. Robert Spitzer) of the conversion therapy has retracted the method of being shoddy science. Much like the vaccine-autism controversy.

http://www.truthwins.../2012/04/24542/

The therapy has absolutely no scientific bases or merits.

http://prospect.org/...ed-ex-gay-life/

He even offered an "apology" for those affected by the therapy.

http://www.nytimes.c....ewanted=3&_r=2

Edited December 10, 2012 by Sleipnir

[guyser]

Do green and yellow jellybeans keep the gay polar bears away?

Didnt you hear? They sent all the bears to a therapy session and there are no more gay polar bears.

I am still working on which colour bean works to keep the LDS away from my front door.

I think if gay people want to live a heterosexual lifestyle, that's their choice ... so long as they're honest with their spouse. A man who 'shrinks' from the touch of a woman damages the woman psychologically if he's trying to pretend.

Thats why there is Viagra I guess

If he's honest prior to entering the relationship, that's different.

People are in relationships for all kinds of reasons that may have little to do with sex or sexual fidelity. Honesty is what's important ... and condoms.

Agreed

[guyser]

Just for the record, many churches are supportive of gays - and some atheists aren't.

True, although I would say some denominations not many churches

[Guest American Woman]

But, atheists who despise homos have to accept wherever the trail of evidence leads to. Atheists cannot claim to have divine or divinely inspired 3000 year old texts to apply as the absolute authority on the subject. Where it becomes especially damaging, is when Christian converts in Africa, accept the dogmas they learned from western evangelists and apply what the Bible says to the letter of the law, i.e. putting homosexuals to death in Uganda.

I would wager that some religious folks dislike gays for personal reasons just as some atheists do. You think every religious person believes what they do because the church tells them to? What about atheists, then - why do they believe what they do?

But since you brought up Uganda, let's look at another country that hasn't been influenced by religion: "With the rise of the Communist Party, homosexuality became a symbol of Western vice and decadence. Though not officially banned, homosexual activity was forced underground. Homosexuals in China were often forced into heterosexual marriages, harrassed by police, imprisoned, and occassionally disappeared. Today homosexuals are still harassed by police, though it is believed that imprisonment is rare."

Again. It's not just the religious who "despise homos."

http://distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/05/01/the-treatment-of-homosexuals-under-communism