Gay "in denial"....and Gay-to-straight theraphy

[The_Squid]

Again. It's not just the religious who "despise homos."

In North America, for the most part, it certainly is.

[Guest American Woman]

In North America, for the most part, it certainly is.

The example given me, the one I was replying to, was in Africa.

[The_Squid]

The example given me, the one I was replying to, was in Africa.

There's a connection with the between U.S. churches and Uganda "kill the homosexuals bill"....

http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/exporting-homophobia-american-far-right-conservative-churches-establish-influence-on-anti-gay-policy-in-africa/Content?oid=1767227

Victor Mukasa, a Ugandan in self-imposed exile in South Africa working with the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, told BW there were struggles for LGBT people in Uganda before, but it was not until American evangelicals came to Uganda that things took a turn for the worse.

[msj]

But since you brought up Uganda, let's look at another country that hasn't been influenced by religion: "With the rise of the Communist Party, homosexuality became a symbol of Western vice and decadence. Though not officially banned, homosexual activity was forced underground. Homosexuals in China were often forced into heterosexual marriages, harrassed by police, imprisoned, and occassionally disappeared. Today homosexuals are still harassed by police, though it is believed that imprisonment is rare."

Again. It's not just the religious who "despise homos."

http://distributedre...under-communism

What religion and communism do have in common is dogma and authoritarianism.

In the case of the USSR and China, all it takes is for one lunatic to enforce a stupid policy - which is pretty much the same thing as what happens in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

[Guest American Woman]

There's a connection with the between U.S. churches and Uganda "kill the homosexuals bill"....

http://www.boiseweek...ent?oid=1767227

There's a connection between China and the west, too: With the rise of the Communist Party, homosexuality became a symbol of Western vice and decadence. It's blamed on capitalism.

[The_Squid]

There's a connection between China and the west, too: With the rise of the Communist Party, homosexuality became a symbol of Western vice and decadence. It's blamed on capitalism.

"blamed on capitalism"....

so western capitalists were over there promoting homosexuality? Or were western communists over there condemning homosexuality? I fail to see your link...

Or was this more of a perception that some people in power were trying to promote over there and really had nothing to do with any westerners actively promoting or condemning it in reality?

Edited December 10, 2012 by The_Squid

[The_Squid]

What religion and communism do have in common is dogma and authoritarianism.

In the case of the USSR and China, all it takes is for one lunatic to enforce a stupid policy - which is pretty much the same thing as what happens in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

Exactly so.... it wasn't commies condemning homosexuality because it is atheist doctrine to do so. It was communist doctrine, however... for whatever reason... It would be like blaming atheism because the communists killed 6 million in the Ukraine....

Can't blame atheism for that one!

[msj]

Or was this more of a perception that some people in power were trying to promote over there and really had nothing to do with any westerners actively promoting or condemning it in reality?

Tyrants do this kind of thing all the time.

Blame something on someone/ some group.

It is done for a variety of reasons - dogmatic (loony ideology such as communism or Islam or Christianity, etc), political ("them" vs "us") and/or other reasons that have to do with irrational humans acting irrational (which almost always involves dogma of one brand or another).

[msj]

Exactly so.... it wasn't commies condemning homosexuality because it is atheist doctrine to do so. It was communist doctrine, however... for whatever reason... It would be like blaming atheism because the communists killed 6 million in the Ukraine....

Can't blame atheism for that one!

Atheism is just a label and, like Humpty Dumpty, it means whatever the person using it chooses it to mean.

If one doesn't like atheists then they are the face of communism or fascism.

Humans do terrible acts all the time and they inevitably have to do with flaws in our character where people submit to authoritarianism.

We come up with all kinds of religious or scientific reasons for other people to be tortured, oppressed and killed.

Most of the time those reasons are backed up by religious doctrine but that is not always the case.

[Guest American Woman]

"blamed on capitalism"....

so western capitalists were over there promoting homosexuality? Or were western communists over there condemning homosexuality? I fail to see your link...

It's not my link; it's their link. Some condemn homosexuality because of the Bible, others because of capitalism. Others because it's 'gross and unnatural.' Others still think it's a disease. Anti-gay isn't simply a religious phenomenon, though one would never know it from reading this thread.

So no, capitalists weren't responsible for the treatment of homosexuals in China and U.S. Evangelicals aren't responsible for Uganda putting homosexuals to death.

What I see is more than a few people using the anti-gay stance of some religious people as a reason, or even justification, for being anti-religious. Rather ironic, imo.

[The_Squid]

...and U.S. Evangelicals aren't responsible for Uganda putting homosexuals to death.

Except that they helped get the law in place... they made it worse for homosexuals in Uganda.

What I see is more than a few people using the anti-gay stance of some religious people as a reason, or even justification, for being anti-religious. Rather ironic, imo.

I think that the atrocities and bigotry of religious people for religious reasons (dogma) is an excellent reason to be anti-religion... nothing ironic about it.

Edited December 10, 2012 by The_Squid

[Guest American Woman]

Except that they helped get the law in place... they made it worse for homosexuals in Uganda.

Many African cultures are anti-gay, and I doubt their cultures are based on U.S. .Evangelicalism. Did they make it worse? I don't see an evidence, other than the claim.

I think that the atrocities and bigotry of religious people for religious reasons (dogma) is an excellent reason to be anti-religion... nothing ironic about it.

And I think painting the religious with one brush, seeing only the negative, overlooking the non-religious aspects of the problem, focusing solely on the religious, is a form of bigotry. So yes, there is something ironic about it - especially since a lot of homosexuals are religious themselves.

Edited December 10, 2012 by American Woman

[Mighty AC]

I can't comment on all of Africa and their thoughts on homosexuality, except that 85% of Ugandans self identify as Christian. As for North America, if you remove religion and its money from the war on homosexuals the problem goes away. Sure, there are other bigots, motivated by other sources but they are few, unfunded and unorganized. Thankfully, not all Christians are bigots, but like I said that just makes those Christians that chose to be, even worse.

[cybercoma]

There is absolutely no reason to condemn homosexuals. It's a ridiculous and shameful practice that needs to stop. How anyone can claim to follow Christ or values of love and compassion, while stigmatizing people that are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered, or questioning is absolutely beyond me. The only reason people that are gay try to hide, act straight, or even become straight is that they are so horribly oppressed for being themselves that they suffer from cognitive dissonance. They don't want to be straight. They want people to stop treating them like they're disgusting animals.

[Mighty AC]

Well said!! Arguing over the source of disgusting, hateful beliefs is a distraction and really not the point at all. Regardless of the community we need to shut down the people who voice such shameful ideas. If the moral refuse to accept this trash from family, friends, community members, fellow parishioners, etc. we can make it go away.

[Moonlight Graham]

I think there should be professional therapy avilable for Christian fundamentalists in order to help them cure their irrational thoughts.

[jbg]

I think there should be professional therapy avilable for Christian fundamentalists in order to help them cure their irrational thoughts.

How about courses in reading and writing the Canadian language?

[g_bambino]

The only reason people that are gay try to... act straight, or even become straight is that they are so horribly oppressed for being themselves that they suffer from cognitive dissonance.

See, I find that to be a wholly presumptuous statement. Would you say it to the face of someone who told you they used to be "gay" but choose to no longer identify that way? To tacitly trivialise the way they choose to live and see and identify themselves, as though you know better than they do what they are and, so long as they disagree, assume they're in denial? I think that's little better than the religious quacks who try to coerce people who identify as "gay" into changing their minds, since the Christians think they know better than those people what's right for them and what they should be thinking.

There are people who identify openly as "gay" and freely "act straight" (and it makes me wonder what you think the requisite and proper "gay act" is); there are even married couples consisting of two opposite sex people who each openly identify as "gay". There are also people who've identified as "gay" and then ended up in a "straight" relaitonship and abandoned the "gay" label, quite by their own development and free choice; or labelled themselves "gay" but realised they were still interested in the opposite sex, nonetheless, and used the "bisexual" or "pansexual" label, or even still stuck with the "gay" label while openly admitting a sexual attraction to and having sex with people of the opposite gender (see "The End of Gay and the Death of Heterosexuality" by Bert Archer).

People really need to stop forcing other people into one of two stupid little pigeon holes and expecting them to act appropriately.

[ed.: c/e, sp]

Edited December 11, 2012 by g_bambino

[cybercoma]

I've been saying throughout this thread that sexuality is not a binary of gay-straight, but you must have missed that. If they want to be straight there are absolutely no barriers to being straight other than their own sexual desires for people of the same sex. If they're trying to be something they're not (straight), then of course it's going to be difficult and painful because they're not straight. They're not attracted to people of the opposite sex. The only reason they would beat themselves up over being gay and wanting desperately to be straight is because they can't stop wanting the same sex. But why would they want to? Because it's stigmatized and they're dehumanized for doing so. The entire idea is absurd of you think about it the other way (as I also pointed out already in this thread). For instance, a person is straight and really, really wants to be gay. Is there therapy for that? Are we concerned about them? Of course not because it doesn't happen. Straight people aren't forced by normative social control to constantly question their sexuality or view their sexuality as a filthy and disgusting subhuman thing. So, like I said, accepting that there is no gay-straight binary, people need to accept their sexuality for what it is and where they fall on the spectrum. Denial of your own sexuality is unhealthy, as we can tell from the marked difference in suicide rates for LGBTQ kids. And even more importantly than that, grown ass adults need to stop being assholes and oppressing people simply because they're sexually attracted to the same sex.

Edited December 11, 2012 by cybercoma

[jacee]

Didnt you hear? They sent all the bears to a therapy session and there are no more gay polar bears.

I am still working on which colour bean works to keep the LDS away from my front door.

Try a jellybean rainbow.

[jacee]

I think there should be professional therapy avilable for Christian fundamentalists in order to help them cure their irrational thoughts.

[betsy]

Still not buying it! The standpoint that gay men can change or be forcibly changed in sexual orientation is not far removed from the more traditional view years ago, that these are either evil or diseased people who must either be put to death or banished to gay ghettos in the major cities. The stories from the Bible Belt indicate that teenage boys in fundamentalist families aren't given a choice in the matter before they undergo whatever sort of gay reversion therapy is prescribed; they have to go through it whether they want to or not. And I don't believe you put a homosexual man into gay therapy and come out with a heterosexual afterwards. All you get is a gay man who keeps his attractions secret and tightly closeted. That would explain the high number of evangelical sex scandals over the years that involve secret gay affairs or the molesting of boys.

But what about children or young teens who'd been sexually abused by same-sex abusers (a coach, priest, teacher, etc..)......you think it's not possible that some of these children had grown up with some confusion as to their sexuality? If their abuser was a man - why wouldn't they be posibly confused that they could be gay?

Perhaps abusers (like Sandusky) even promoted the idea of having sex between same-sex as normal! You think a predator that's out to seduce and initiate an innocent into a sexual relationship wouldn't "sugar-coat" the experience?

[betsy]

Questions for everyone. Caution: rational thinking involved.

How do these so-called experts who say it's dangerous to do such theraphy know that ALL gays were "born" gay?

How do they know that everyone fit the same profile?

That no one among these gay is truly unhappy about his gayness - since deep inside he might be truly a heterosexual?

How do you know? Of course you don't. No one knows. These so-called experts don't either. They're dishing out self-serving BS for their own agenda.

Edited December 11, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Here is an excerpt of a victim impact statement:

At a young and very impressionable age, I was stalked, preyed upon and sexually assaulted over 150 times by an adult my family and I trusted completely.

I was a boy with a big dream and the talent to match. I played hockey in the early morning hours, after school, on the weekends and holidays, I even dreamed of hockey. Everyone in my life knew of my passion and my talent, including convicted pedophile Graham James.

Mr. James was a well-known minor hockey coach, and he zeroed in on my family and me. He skillfully manipulated us all, and eventually my parents entrusted my care and well being to him in order to allow me to move to other towns and cities to advance my hockey dream. He was a larger than life figure with the hockey credentials and education as a teacher, to match, and it was drilled into me that he held the keys to making my dream become a reality.

I was just a kid. A child. I was completely under Graham James's control. And I was scared. I did not have the emotional skills, the knowledge, or the ability to stop the rapes or change my circumstances. I felt lost, alone, and helpless. And those feelings did not stop after I was able to get away from Mr. James; I continued to feel that way for 20+ years afterwards. I descended into years of drug addiction, alcoholism, and addictions to sex, gambling, rage.

http://proicehockey....t-Statement.htm

Of course, not all victims end up dealing with drugs and sex addiction. The crime may be the same....but that's all. How it happened, to whom it happened, the circumstances, etc.., all play a role on the impact it gives to the victim.

How it impacts a minor differs individually BECAUSE THESE VICTIMS ARE SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS!

Men Struggle for Rape Awareness

“We recognize that male children are being abused,” Dr. Lisak said, “but then when boys cross some kind of threshold somewhere in adolescence and become what we perceive to be men, we no longer want to think about it in this way.”

Even when high-profile cases dominate the news, said Mai Fernandez, executive director of the National Center for Victims of Crime advocacy organization in Washington, “attention goes to the things we feel more comfortable talking about — such as whether Penn State had done enough, and what will happen to their football program — and not to the question, ‘What do we do to prevent boys from being sexually assaulted?’ ”

Some studies have reported that the risk of rape is greatest for men who are young, are living in poverty or homeless, or are disabled or mentally ill. The C.D.C. study found that one-quarter of men who had been raped were assaulted before they were 10 , usually by someone they knew.

And young men raised by poor single mothers are especially vulnerable to male predators, said Dr. Zane Gates, an internist who cares for low-income patients on Medicaid at a community health center in Altoona, Pa.

“You’re looking for a male figure in your life desperately, and you’ll give anything for that,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

So as you can see....it's not all so simple as you guys (mis)understand it. You should try to look farther than the tip of your noses.

Edited December 11, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

You many have seen men change who they have sex with, but that doesn't mean their "sexual orientation" has changed - it just means that their sex partners have changed.

So they could've been heterosexuals in the first place, who had - for whatever reasons - dabbled or thought they're gays, only to realize in the end that they are not gay, so they got back on track as being heterosexuals. I can see that.

Some confusions are worked out naturally by the person dealing with it, with no need for outside help. But in some cases, they do need some psychological or therapeutic help.

It's amazing that society gives therapeutic help for those who deal with loss of lives. Psychologists are rushed to schools to "help" children deal with a schoolmate dying in an accident or committing suicide - like as if we don't have our own natural defense mechanisms to deal with issues like this - which is but all-natural since we all end up dying at some point - and yet, we turn a blind eye on the issue we're discussing about.

Edited December 11, 2012 by betsy