Unions Using Teachers Using Students

jacee · December 11, 2012

You have a problem if you need the bill you passed to say the following:

Restrictions on jurisdiction

Limit on jurisdiction of Ontario Labour Relations Board

14. (1) The Ontario Labour Relations Board shall not inquire into or make a decision on whether a provision of this Act, a regulation or an order made under subsection 9 (2) is constitutionally valid or is in conflict with the Human Rights Code.

Limit on jurisdiction of arbitrators

(2) An arbitrator or arbitration board shall not inquire into or make a decision on whether a provision of this Act, a regulation or an order made under subsection 9 (2) is constitutionally valid or is in conflict with the Human Rights Code.

Restrictions on review

No review by court

15. (1) No term or condition included in an employment contract or collective agreement under or by virtue of this Act, process for consultation prescribed under this Act, or decision, approval, act, advice, direction, regulation or order made by the Minister or Lieutenant Governor in Council under this Act shall be questioned or reviewed in any court.

Same

(2) No steps shall be taken to have a court question, review, prohibit or restrain any consultation, review or approval process prescribed or initiated under this Act at the Minister’s or Lieutenant Governor in Council’s discretion.

Cripes look at Dalton go! ... following Harrris' playbook to the letter! What a good little neolib he is!

And suddenly the far right loves Dalton too!

Where are all the 'McSquinty' haters now?

They loooooove this guy! :lol:

MiddleClassCentrist · December 11, 2012

I shall... I do not believe 115 impacts any of those "codes", labor law etc.etc.

How about the part where it is not to be challenged? Do you agree? Section 14 and 15 above. Clearly violating civil rights. Big government right there.

Edited December 11, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

Boges · December 11, 2012

How about the part where it is not to be challenged? Do you agree? Section 14 and 15 above. Clearly violating civil rights. Big government right there.

They're challenging it in court right?

Fletch 27 · December 11, 2012

How about the part where it is not to be challenged? Do you agree? Section 14 and 15 above. Clearly violating civil rights. Big government right there.

Nope.. No issues.. Its a democratic process, the bill was passed in the democratic process... and this was put in place by the Liberals... Exactly what the Unions voted for, an In.

I didnt support the Liberals.... The teachers did..

T

Boges · December 11, 2012

It's not like the province was negotiating in bad faith. They were able to make deals with some school boards. Apparently if a deal had not been reached by September 1st, automatic raises were in-order so that's why a deal was imposed.

Topaz · December 11, 2012

So is the answer to all these teachers strikes is to have more private schools? Is there money to be made in private schooling?

Boges · December 11, 2012

So is the answer to all these teachers strikes is to have more private schools? Is there money to be made in private schooling?

Private schools cost more than post-secondary education (University education is highly subsidized). Some private schools cost Tens of Thousands of Dollars to attend.

I would advocate for a voucher-type system where schools actually have to compete for students and not just get money regardless.

Mighty AC · December 11, 2012

Ideally Ontario should have one strong public system. We should not be publicly funding separate religious or language specific boards. Anyone opting out of the public system should receive a partial refund of the education portion of their taxes while their kids are in a K-12 private school. After that point the tax break ends.

Wayward Son · December 11, 2012

Ideally Ontario should have one strong public system. We should not be publicly funding separate religious or language specific boards. Anyone opting out of the public system should receive a partial refund of the education portion of their taxes while their kids are in a K-12 private school. After that point the tax break ends.

While I agree with only having one system, I don't agree with any refund going to people who choose not to use it. I have no children, nor do I plan to. However, I pay taxes towards public education just as I pay taxes towards the military etc. I do not receive a refund because I have no children receiving the benefits of the tax dollars I pay towards education, nor do I feel that I should. Like everyone else I benefit from living in a society with an educated population. If someone chooses not to use publicly available programs and resources then they have chosen not to use them.

MiddleClassCentrist · December 12, 2012

Private schools cost more than post-secondary education (University education is highly subsidized). Some private schools cost Tens of Thousands of Dollars to attend.

I would advocate for a voucher-type system where schools actually have to compete for students and not just get money regardless.

Great, Private Schools already give high marks for money and their students do worse at university... Intriguing free market concept.

Free market education is a lot like marketing, you dont actually need a better product or result, you just need enough people to believe that things are better(inflated high marks) and theyll think that it is better.

That being said, I would gladly put my children in private school for elementary because the public system is full is full of high needs,.violent students whose parents demand that they be integrated... At the cost of everyone elses education.

Edited December 12, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

Topaz · December 12, 2012

Since the Catholic schools have already agreed with th province and settled than if you want just one than by their actions, one would get rid of the public schools? I don't think one can get rid of the Catholic school system, it has been in place for many many years between the English and the French. I know many non-Catholics that have sent their kids there and they just change where their school taxes go.

Boges · December 12, 2012

There are some that say that the Province threatened the two separate school boards (French and Catholic), that if they didn't make a deal the Province would try to de-fund them. I have no evidence to prove that but I wouldn't be surprised

Wayward Son · December 12, 2012

Since the Catholic schools have already agreed with th province and settled than if you want just one than by their actions, one would get rid of the public schools?

Not at all. The Catholic union simply signed a deal with a "me too" clause. Preferring that others put in the effort and expense to not only fight for their own rights and benefits, but by default, do the fighting for the Catholics as well. It is not the first time either. The "me too" clause removes any moral standing from their agreement.

I don't think one can get rid of the Catholic school system, it has been in place for many many years between the English and the French.

The same arguments were made in Quebec and New Foundland about the separate school systems. Both got rid of the needless expense and blatent discrimination through a simple constitutional ammendment (in 1997 for New Foundland and 1999 for Quebec).

I know many non-Catholics that have sent their kids there and they just change where their school taxes go.

No they do not. The government and separate school boards need to stop spreading this completely baseless lie. People do not direct where their school taxes go. Tax revenue goes into general revenue and it's distribution has notthing to do with which school system people support. The government does not direct money to catholic or public school boards based on whether or not people check that they support the public or catholic school boards. The ONLY thing that does is indicate to the government how much support the separate school board has or does not have.

Nor is the funding to school boards the same per student. In the district I last lived in the funding per student was roughly 12G per english public school student, 14G per english catholic school student, 17G per french catholic school student, and 21G per french public school student.

It is a little difficult to compare the real costs of the french boards against the english boards (in this case) as the french public board receives a geographic circumstances grant of $2800 per student for covering a large area with few students (a grant for which there would be no need if there was one school board as far as I can see) and as the french boards receive a language grant of $2400 per student compared to $134 per student at the english boards (Perhaps supporting to my anecdotal experience from 15 years ago that every graduate I knew from either french board was bilingual, and no graduate I knew from either english board was even close, but I have no idea what the language grant actually consists of).

The difference between the funding per student at the english catholic and english public boards is significant: 11% more funding for students at english catholic schools then their english public counterparts. As the english catholic board also covers a smaller geographic region, and a less rural region this makes even less sense. I find it sad that not only am I as a tax payer funding religious schools (which I disagree with), but funding them in a discriminatory manner (as only a single denomination of a single religion is funded), funding them to support their discrimination (both against homosexual students, and blatent discrimination in hiring practices which has resulted in 45% of the new teacher positions in the province being open exclusively to a group of 30% of the population, along with that 30% being on equal footing for the other 55% of the jobs), funding them at a significantly higher rate, and all because a group of people 150 years ago made a decision based on the completely different circumstances that existed at that time as compared to now, and 150 years later we are far too damn stupid to correct the decision.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Wayward Son

MiddleClassCentrist · December 12, 2012

I seriously hope this effed up system doesn't last too much longer .... Catholic funding to build new schools where all students are already serviced just results in more, surplus capacity schools...

Boges · December 12, 2012

Just as fighting with the Unions puts you up against a significant voting block so does fighting against the Catholics. A politician that wants to repeal the Catholic system would likely be toast. I haven't even heard the NDP discuss it.

Dalton hypocritically called the John Tory's faith-based funding plan segregation while his wife teaches in the Catholic system (if I remember correctly)

MiddleClassCentrist · December 13, 2012

In time, it's a dead system. Catholics will fight to keep it alive, sure. But it does have an end in its future. Unless the world becomes entirely Catholic, cleansing all forms of free thought. Which is entirely contrary to our world of scientific progress.

Mighty AC · December 13, 2012

I don't think one can get rid of the Catholic school system, it has been in place for many many years between the English and the French. I know many non-Catholics that have sent their kids there and they just change where their school taxes go.

The UN Human rights commission declared that public money support for Catholic schools but not other religions is discriminatory...and they're right. In 1997 Newfoundland ousted publicly funded Catholic schools. They had a referendum, amended the constitution and boom they now have one public secular school system. In 1999 a province wide newspaper survey indicated that 79% of respondents favoured a single public secular system in Ontario as well. In short, it can be done fairly easily and it should be done.

August1991 · December 13, 2012

I don't know much about this strike in Ontario but quickly reading through this thread, I'm surprised about the support for "one single public secular school system".

Do we have a single system for grocery stores? For airlines? For cell phones? Even mail is not a "single system".

Heck, we don't even have a single school system since education is a provincial jurisdiction and hence we have 10 or so very different school systems.

When (English) Canadians argue in favour of a single system (more federal powers etc) on the grounds that it would be more efficient, I answer that by the same logic, we should simply join the US and have a single North American system.

In general, choice is always better and one of the problems in education is that parents have few choices. All teachers must be certified by a union (federation) and this power is jealously guarded.

-----

Anyway and IMV, education is about to be hit with the same technological tsunami that hit banking (for example) about 30 years ago, mail services 20 years ago and is hitting journalism now. The fact that most teachers are in the unionized public sector will protect them in part but only for awhile.

A bank branch in 1960 operated much like a branch in 1860. Tellers hand wrote on account cards. By 1980, all accounts were computerized and tellers had become automated. In 2012, like in 1912, most teachers still write on a blackboard with chalk in front of a class of about 25 pupils. No one really knows if the children learn anything. This is going to change dramatically in the next 20 years or so.

Edited December 13, 2012 by August1991

Boges · December 13, 2012

People involved in public education don't want other systems because it would force them to compete for enrollment.

Boges · December 13, 2012

Delete

Edited December 13, 2012 by Boges

login · December 13, 2012

---

Edited December 13, 2012 by login

login · December 13, 2012

This same thing came up in the 90's teacher's have no obligation to give after school hours for activities if its not in their contract. Harris is the one who removed paid-overtime for teachers to run after hours clubs and teams.

If parents want the teams why don't they coach, Rob Ford does, with all the Rob Ford lovers out there I'm sure there would be a coach for every student team in Toronto without a single teacher being obligated to do so.

Why is it the teachers who need to provide non funded programs out of their personal time?

Edited December 13, 2012 by login

Michael Hardner · December 13, 2012

With regards to Auguste's post - the idea that teachers will be replaced with computers is maybe a little interesting but ultimately just a sci-fi fantasy. They thought that when television came in, too. Personal services is necessary in many jobs and teaching is at the top of that list.

Hell, we still don't have automated manufacturing at this point.

Boges · December 13, 2012

This same thing came up in the 90's teacher's have no obligation to give after school hours for activities if its not in their contract. Harris is the one who removed paid-overtime for teachers to run after hours clubs and teams.

If parents want the teams why don't they coach, Rob Ford does, with all the Rob Ford lovers out there I'm sure there would be a coach for every student team in Toronto without a single teacher being obligated to do so.

Why is it the teachers who need to provide non funded programs out of their personal time?

There has to be a teacher present still. Insurance blah blah blah. Student Safety blah blah blah. Teachers are only interested in student safety when others are going to be brought in to do the job, they refuse to do. School's have to hire private security now because teachers refuse to patrol the school during lunch hour etc.

Mighty AC · December 13, 2012

With regards to Auguste's post - the idea that teachers will be replaced with computers is maybe a little interesting but ultimately just a sci-fi fantasy. They thought that when television came in, too. Personal services is necessary in many jobs and teaching is at the top of that list.

Hell, we still don't have automated manufacturing at this point.

Agreed. People have the misconception that education is about spewing information. Maybe it was ages ago, but better teachers lecture as little as possible these days.