End of the Civilised World

[August1991]

Am I the only person who is thinking about the end of our civilised world?

Quite apart from Maya calendars, Fiscal Cliffs, Greek/euro defaults... there seems to be a fatigue. We in the West are tired, old. We are pensioners.

The Enlightenment of Voltaire is now the Revolt of Cairo; we are sadly back to the ancient dispute between poor against rich.

Some 200 or 300 years later, the wonderful American, New World, US experiment is now dying.

Jimmy Stewart has become Tom Hanks.

Edited December 7, 2012 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

....Some 200 or 300 years later, the wonderful American, New World, US experiment is now dying.

No, it's alive and well all over the world...and even in outer space.

[Bonam]

US experiment is now dying.

Any evidence to back this assertion?

[Pliny]

Any evidence to back this assertion?

He just had his 65th Birthday.

[August1991]

No, it's alive and well all over the world...and even in outer space.

Yes, on Mars - but I fear no longer here.

He just had his 65th Birthday.

All too true for many Westerners, Baby Boomers et al, modern products of the Enlightenment.

The US Constitution is also a product of the Enlightenment, and I wonder whether it too will survive.

Edited December 7, 2012 by August1991

[Pliny]

Yes, on Mars - but I fear no longer here.

All too true for many Westerners, products of the Enlightenment.

Say August, I note on your profile that you cite the Bastiat website. Have you read a lot of his works?

[bleeding heart]

Some 200 or 300 years later, the wonderful American, New World, US experiment is now dying.

Some might cogently argue that it's catching on more than ever.

[Topaz]

Let's debate this "new World Order" and please no tin foil, just debate, first do you believe in NWO? I'm not 100% sure but if one reads about what happens to create it, it seems to be happening. The part were the elite control countries through their economies, which bring into all the "free trade" countries are doing. By the why certain countries tries to buy the same jet planes to rule through NATO. The "unions" such as the European Union, the so to be North American Union, The South-Eastern Asia Union. I think the power that be are a work very slowly and I also think that why Harper is making so many changes to Canada to harmonize more with the US. Of course, I know some may not think this is happening and that's is expexted but just watch what is really happening in Canada and in the world, especially the Middle-East , where is harder to control by the elites.

[GostHacked]

Economic collapse followed by a new global war. That is our future.

[Michael Hardner]

Nothing but optimism. Don't mistake the thunderous crashing of storm fronts as the end of days. Rain will come, then sunshine.

The old world and the world are coming together closer than before. Be happy.

[eyeball]

first do you believe in NWO?

No, just the same disorder except more of it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, on Mars - but I fear no longer here.

No, you use a piece of the U.S. every day...in Canada. It's called the global hegemon for a reason. Probes now leaving this solar system for interstellar space came from....America.

[eyeball]

So interstellar space is now US territory too?

Figures.

[Guest]

Economic collapse followed by a new global war. That is our future.

Could help with AGW?

[g_bambino]

[W]e are sadly back to the ancient dispute between poor against rich.

When did we depart it?

[GostHacked]

Could help with AGW?

AWG is the least of our concerns, if it really is a concern to begin with.

[Guest]

AWG is the least of our concerns, if it really is a concern to begin with.

Oops, another thread. Sorry.

[WIP]

Am I the only person who is thinking about the end of our civilised world?

Quite apart from Maya calendars, Fiscal Cliffs, Greek/euro defaults... there seems to be a fatigue. We in the West are tired, old. We are pensioners.

You're talking about possible causes for an end to civilization, and yet you fail to notice the hard limit that WILL cause the crash or the unwinding of our present civilization: resource scarcities and environmental degradation. This tells me that you either are not serious, or you spend too much time in the abstract world of economic theory and political science, and not enough examining how nature is revolting against our civilization.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ours is not the first or last "civilization". Others have come before and are long gone, but mankind survived. It is a very narrow view that projects a disasterous outcome in terms of what may or may not exist in the future compared to today.

Relax...go build a pyramid.

[WIP]

Ours is not the first or last "civilization". Others have come before and are long gone, but mankind survived. It is a very narrow view that projects a disasterous outcome in terms of what may or may not exist in the future compared to today.

Relax...go build a pyramid.

Yes, but that's because building pyramids is done through the use of sustainable resources....as far as I know, we're not going to run out of limestone. As for our survival...or more correctly, the survival of future generations, their survival depends on how the planet's biosphere adjusts and reacts to what we have done so far to terraform the world to our liking. And that makes it crapshoot at best!

[bush_cheney2004]

.... As for our survival...or more correctly, the survival of future generations, their survival depends on how the planet's biosphere adjusts and reacts to what we have done so far to terraform the world to our liking. And that makes it crapshoot at best!

It has always been a crapshoot with a tolerated level of risk. You can't just stop the game because it might require more adaptation in the future. Climate change is not even top five among known risks.

[WWWTT]

When did we depart it?

When the poor went to sleep.

But their waking up now and asking questions

WWWTT

[Guest Peeves]

Oh I think, Chauncey Gardener said it best. can't fault that prognostication.

Chance the Gardener: As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden.

President "Bobby": In the garden.

Chance the Gardener: Yes. In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.

President "Bobby": Spring and summer.

Chance the Gardener: Yes.

President "Bobby": Then fall and winter.

Chance the Gardener: Yes.

Benjamin Rand: I think what our insightful young friend is saying is that we welcome the inevitable seasons of nature, but we're upset by the seasons of our economy.

Chance the Gardener: Yes! There will be growth in the spring!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078841/quotes

[WIP]

It has always been a crapshoot with a tolerated level of risk. You can't just stop the game because it might require more adaptation in the future. Climate change is not even top five among known risks.

You don't understand the scale and the scope of the problem. Here's the problem with adaptation -- natural systems adapt and evolve at a very slow pace. For example, I've posted elsewhere about the mostly ignored crisis of rapid ocean acidification. It's not that the levels are higher than any time previous in history....the problem, like the rate of atmospheric carbon increase, is that it is happening in such a rapid timescale that nature does not have time to adapt to the changes.

During the final age of Dinosaurs - the Cretaceous, most of that period had a high carbon level in the atmosphere, and no ice at the poles. There was tropical vegetation in the Arctic, including a species of alligators in the Arctic Ocean that had developed specific adaptations to living in a world with six month-long days and nights. But, the changes occurred very gradually...not in the space of a couple of centuries! Same with sudden recognition of coral bleaching and dieoff of coral species. During the Cretaceous, reef-builders, plankton and other fish, had time to adapt to changing ph levels and move away from hotter equatorial waters; whereas today, marine biologists are telling us that, not only do the reef builders not have time to adapt, even the plankton species (which move very slowly) don't have the time to move to more suitable waters and adjust to lower ph levels in the water.

And if nature can't adapt, I don't think we will either, regardless of the level of hubris. We depend on nature to supply us our food, clean water and air to breath. Humans are only adaptable in the sense of developing technologies that allow us to exploit nature to greater degrees. Unless we spend time in the woods roughing it, and trying to get clean water and gather something to eat, we are as helpless as babies today! The humans of the Pleistocene were far more resourceful and adaptable than we are today. They pretty much had no choice about it because of the rapid swings and weather and changes in climate. And even then, the human race had at least a couple of close calls when our ancestors almost dwindled down to the point of extinction. Next time, may not be so lucky!

[bush_cheney2004]

...And if nature can't adapt, I don't think we will either, regardless of the level of hubris. We depend on nature to supply us our food, clean water and air to breath. Humans are only adaptable in the sense of developing technologies that allow us to exploit nature to greater degrees.

We are part of "nature", and have only been around for a blip in time. Mass extinctions occurred several times before we ever showed up. The planet doesn't really care either way. Scratching about on the thin crust or ocean does not kill an entire planet.