Sleipnir Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 You tell him, Squid! Sleipnir does go off from his own topic! Stay on topic betsy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 In most cases it's just envy. Kinda like penis envy. Tell us more about penis envy. I'm not really sure what that's like, since I have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleipnir Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) He brings in Christianity in his OP: how observant. His title is a question about Christmas becoming redundant. And of course, since he cited a Christian article for his OP....it's only appropriate that Christian point of view should also be given! That's fair. And my view is: NO, Sleipnir. TO A CHRISTIAN, THE MEANING OF CHRISTMAS IS NOT "REDUNDANT" SINCE TO US CHRISTIANS, IT IS A CELEBRATION COMEMORATING THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH TO FULFILL THE PROMISE! You failed to read the title of this thread, the title stated 'becoming redundant' not 'completely redundant' - try reading it carefully, and stop shouting betsy. It goes way, way, way deeper than that. And the joy is real! Uplifting! A Non-depressant! I agree, I tend to join in the holidays celebration for that exact same purposes without getting all religious. But my initial statement was, has the purpose of christmas on the 25th become more redundant since jesus wasn't born on that date? Why not celebrate it when it may most likely be correct? April or May? Edited December 2, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Whether the reader shares the same faith or not doesn't make any difference. Whether the reader believes the same or not, is of no consequence. He was born man, as the Saviour. To show us the way, to die for everyone....to give us that chance. I am explaining the meaning of Christmas as a Christian. You're right. I am simply stating MY FAITH - MY belief. Ok - it's a question of clarity and English though. Your quote: "We give thanks to God for sending us His only begotten Son, to save you and I....that we may all have a chance at eternal life." Is confusing because you say "We"... then later in the sentence "you and I". So I'm assuming that you mean "you and I" give thanks, meaning that we're both believers. I get that the message is for all humans but my point is that there's no point in trying to bridge faith and reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 So , Thanksgiving was mentioned. I guess the celebration of slaughtering native Americans is a Christian holiday? Does not sound very Christian to me. And want some commercialization there too?? Black Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleipnir Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) Didn't you already bring it back to paganism? Maybe you should dance in front of the tree, or whatever it is that pagans do. -Decorating a tree. -hanging up wreath and stockings. -having a great feast. -singing carols. -exchanging gifs. -family gathering. -Santa (Thor) and his reindeers (horses) -Santa's elves (Thor's elves). Anyway.....aren't you supposed to simply celebrate the "HOLIDAYS?" Am I supposed to? Edited December 2, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I think it's ignorant is to say that it "makes Baby Jesus cry," which is what I was saying - especially when it's apparent that the person making the comment doesn't even believe in Jesus. It's part of the mocking of religious beliefs that I was referring to in my previous post, and it comes across as ignorant and inflammatory. I think you're taking it a little too seriously, but ok.... I think old bearded Jesus would shed a tear if he saw the excessive consumerism that his "birthday" has become! I think the "ramped up consumerism" is due, at least in part, to the secularization which is, in part, being forced on society regarding Christmas - or at least the public aspect of it. I also think it's rather hypocritical to criticize the commercial aspect of it when one just looks upon it as a secular celebration - that one chooses to participate in. Take away the religious, and one is left with the commercial aspect - wouldn't you agree? Personally, the commercialism doesn't bother me - it's to be expected in a capitalist country/economy - as nothing is being forced on any of us by it. If it weren't effective, it wouldn't be still be going on - and it's only effective because of the population's actions/reactions (which is well within in our control). Secularism is not the same as consumerism, nor is it a cause. Your own argument about it is self contradictory. First you say it's secularism that causes commercialism. Then you say that you, a religious person, is not worried about the commercialism. However, we've heard from a couple non-religious people here who are opposed to the rampant commercialism of Xmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) Ok - it's a question of clarity and English though. Your quote: "We give thanks to God for sending us His only begotten Son, to save you and I....that we may all have a chance at eternal life." Is confusing because you say "We"... then later in the sentence "you and I". So I'm assuming that you mean "you and I" give thanks, meaning that we're both believers. I get that the message is for all humans but my point is that there's no point in trying to bridge faith and reason. To clarify: We (Christians) give thanks to God for sending us (mankind) His only begotten Son, to save you and I (mankind - believers and non-believers)...that we may all (mankind) have a chance at eternal life. I emphasize this part, "to have the chance"....since we (Christians) know that in order to gain eternal life, we have to accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour, and follow His teachings. Edited December 2, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 You failed to read the title of this thread, the title stated 'becoming redundant' not 'completely redundant' - try reading it carefully, Same thing. Anyway, don't you mean "becoming obsolete, instead of redundant?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I think you're taking it a little too seriously, but ok.... I think old bearded Jesus would shed a tear if he saw the excessive consumerism that his "birthday" has become! So you believe in Jesus? I didn't realize that. So elaborate, please. Tell me, based on your beliefs, why you think old bearded Jesus would shed a tear if he saw the consumerism that the celebration of his birthday has become; and based on your assessment of what Jesus would feel, I am also interested in how you think he would feel about all the non-believers taking religion out of the public celebration of Christmas. How do you think he would feel about all of the atheists insisting on "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas?" How do you think he would feel about school programs only allowing "I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas" vs. "Oh Holy Night?" Secularism is not the same as consumerism, nor is it a cause. They are certainly tied together. As more people focus less on the true meaning and more people don't even believe, yet celebrate, it's going to be more "consumer focused." Your own argument about it is self contradictory. First you say it's secularism that causes commercialism. No, I didn't say that it caused it. I said it was, in part, a factor. Then you say that you, a religious person, is not worried about the commercialism. Where did I say that? Where did I say, "I, a religious person?" I simply was speaking for myself as a person, saying that realistically, in capitalist based economies such as the U.S. and Canada, where the religious has been all but banned from the public celebration, what else would one expect? If people want to buy, buy, buy - why should I care? However, we've heard from a couple non-religious people here who are opposed to the rampant commercialism of Xmas. And that makes no sense to me at all. Why would you care, when you don't believe? Do you have opposition to some aspects of capitalism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 -Decorating a tree. -hanging up wreath and stockings. -having a great feast. -singing carols. -exchanging gifs. -family gathering. -Santa (Thor) and his reindeers (horses) -Santa's elves (Thor's elves). Am I supposed to? If you're a non-believer, I find your OP odd. You're stating Christmas is becoming redundant - and you suggest that we bring it back to paganism - well, haven't you been following the other secularists who'd already done that? Why do you even bother using the word, "Christmas" when for years now, secularists have been using "Holidays" in lieu of that word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Didn't you already bring it back to paganism? Maybe you should dance in front of the tree, or whatever it is that pagans do. as the tree is a fertility symbol I think we're supposed be engaging in the horizontal polka in front of the tree, the kids may find it a little disturbing to watch.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I found this on google does anyone know if it's accurate...it's supposedly about biblical references regarding xmas/fertility trees Jeremiah 10:1-4.....Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 as the tree is a fertility symbol I think we're supposed be engaging in the horizontal polka in front of the tree, the kids may find it a little disturbing to watch.... Oh I wouldn't know how they celebrate. Thanks for that info....I associate trees with Wiccans (maybe I'm wrong). Are Wiccans pagans, btw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) I found this on google does anyone know if it's accurate...it's supposedly about biblical references regarding xmas/fertility trees I've already dropped the tree years ago. Gave out all my collected X'mas decors. Our house is devoid of anything at X'mas time. Not even any light or any nativity scene. It's a personal choice. Our church has a tree - I don't know why it's still being done. I guess they mean well....but still, it's pagan. Edited December 2, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I've already dropped the tree years ago. Gave out all my collected X'mas decors. Our house is devoid of anything at X'mas time. Not even any light or any nativity scene. It's a personal choice. Our church has a tree - I don't know why it's still being done. I guess they mean well....but still, it's pagan. I can respect that as it has nothing to do with your religion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 whereas I'm an atheist who is okay with keeping in touch with my pagan ancestors cultural festivities other than the sex by the tree thing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I can respect that as it has nothing to do with your religion... I've asked the Christian forum to explain about Jeremiah and the tree. The way they interpret it is that Jeremiah is talking about an idol chiselled from a tree...used for idolatry. The X'mas tree, as we know it, is fine. That explains why the church has it. Well, I'm still glad to forego the tree. Saves me a lot of time and effort decorating and putting away stuff afterwards. But then, that's just me....personal choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 the christian forum is wrong, the tree is an idol, a pagan idol...early christian incorporated pagan idols, gods and symbols into their belief... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) the christian forum is wrong, the tree is an idol, a pagan idol...early christian incorporated pagan idols, gods and symbols into their belief... I tend to agree with you on that. The tree is taking away from the real meaning. I also am not into Santa Claus. Imho, when we give - it should be to the poor, or those in need. Edited December 2, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleipnir Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) I found this on google does anyone know if it's accurate...it's supposedly about biblical references regarding xmas/fertility trees Interesting quote thanks! Why do you even bother using the word, "Christmas" when for years now, secularists have been using "Holidays" in lieu of that word! Is there a word you want me to greet people with? Edited December 2, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 the christian forum is wrong, the tree is an idol, a pagan idol...early christian incorporated pagan idols, gods and symbols into their belief... I have that backwards, pagans who converted to christianity just never gave up their pagan traditions...something that occurred in recent history and still happens today, indigenous people converting to christianity don't give up their old religious customs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I have that backwards, pagans who converted to christianity just never gave up their pagan traditions...something that occurred in recent history and still happens today, indigenous people converting to christianity don't give up their old religious customs... I suppose they're all going to hell. I don't think the Christian god likes idols from other traditions/religions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I suppose they're all going to hell. I don't think the Christian god likes idols from other traditions/religions. except for Betsy she's turned away from the dark side.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) I suppose they're all going to hell. I don't think the Christian god likes idols from other traditions/religions. As Christians, we're not supposed to judge who's going to hell. Only God will judge. Who knows, perhaps well-meaning intentions do not count as grave offenses. It's not like as if Christians with X'mas trees idolize these trees as gods.....to them, I'm sure they see the trees as just one of the many props in celebrating the coming of the Messiah. There's also the the big possibility that if a Pastor/Priest approves it....it may be accepted. After all, didn't Moses reluctantly admit divorce on special grounds? I'm just speculating here. Edited December 3, 2012 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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