Signals.Cpl Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 You're a liar. I suggested no such thing. You seem to think justice=vengeance, to me he needs to serve his full term for the crimes he committed. You seem to think that we should take in to account a criminal's upbringing and sentence him/her according to how bad their upbringing was, at some point people need to stop blaming their childhood and start taking responsibility for their actions being 20 and claiming your parents screwed you thats why you committed an offence doesn't cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 You're full of shit. Where did I ever say it was a blank cheque? Every time you post something you cry about how that POS was screwed as a child and thus he should not be punished for his crimes... if that is not a blank check I don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 He was convicted in a kangaroo court... But assuming Omar did lob the grenade, Has the US ever apologized for their actions? Nope. Why? Because, it's all fair in love and war. Why should Khadr apologize in your opinion? The friends/family around him were getting killed and it was a "them (soldiers) or me" situation. In all honesty I don't see how you would have acted any differently in his shoes, but pray tell. Seing as he was in Afghanistan and not an Afghan citizen I don't see how the US owes him any apology. The US owes him an apology for saving his life, offering him medical treatment free of charge for the last 10 years and are now graciously letting a war criminal go without completing his sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 His brother (Abdurahman) was older when he he split from the Khadr clan then Omar was when he was captured. Abdurahman attended numerous AQ training camps, including bomb making, hand to hand combat as well as sniper training. His father signed him up for these. It was just after 9/11 when the US invaded Afghanistan that Abdurahman was split from the Khadrs and was rounded up by NATO forces. There Abdurahman had time to reflect on what his father (tried to make him a suicide bomber) had been trying to brainwash into his head for so many years, he realized that he had valuable information and decided to turn "informant" for the CIA. He didn't choose to split from the Khadr clan, they lost track of each other in the melee that was the US led invasion. Omar/Abdurahman's father is now dead. Abdurahman lives in Toronto currently... Where's the rightwingers crying for his deportation? As you yourself mentioned he was rounded up at the beginning of the war and did not commit the crimes that Omar Khadr. After contemplation he chose his side and now has to live with the decision just like Omar Khadr chose his side and he too has to live with the decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 He has been convicted of murder, and admitted to it. He's also never apologised for it or expressed any remorse for it. I guess somehow that defines him as an "innocent victim" in your leftist mind. The fact nothing he's been convicted of or admitted to would hold up in any civilized court defines his innocence. Your implication that my leftist mind has something to do with that is misplaced. Credit for that goes to the triumph of human rights over the mean-spirited stodgy old conservative thinking that's preoccupied governments and authorities since the dawn of time. Can you show me the law in the Criminal Code which prohibits "illegal indoctrination"? I'm not sure how you can charge someone with a non-existent offence. The UN conventions we signed make make them binding in Canada or we could also send her to The Hague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 the government of canada broke an international agreement it signed on to... To me, this is the important issue -- not what do you think of Muslims, what do you think of Omar Khadr's family, or will he be really pissed off and look for revenge when he gets out of prison -- it's that once again, Canada and the United States create laws, sign on to international laws and then pretend they don't exist whenever they're not convenient. You either live in a country that follows the rule of law or you don't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Every time you post something you cry about how that POS was screwed as a child and thus he should not be punished for his crimes... if that is not a blank check I don't know what is. Edited to give the impression I actually can suffer certain types of people civilly. (When forced) Edited October 1, 2012 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Erm, Omar Khadr...... You don't need a link. He was a boy of 15 and was charged with war crimes as an adult enemy combatant. However minors can be charged as an adult. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_as_an_adult And that trial as an adult included torture to obtain confession and the dubious legal authority of the U.S. to define who's a soldier, and who's an "enemy combatant." Even if the story that he threw the grenade was true, it was an act committed on a battlefield. Edited October 1, 2012 by WIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 You seem to think justice=vengeance, to me he needs to serve his full term for the crimes he committed. You seem to think that we should take in to account a criminal's upbringing and sentence him/her according to how bad their upbringing was, at some point people need to stop blaming their childhood and start taking responsibility for their actions being 20 and claiming your parents screwed you thats why you committed an offence doesn't cut it. Canada failed to up hold its agreement to an international treaty, as was covered earlier in this thread. I'll repost it for the benefit of yourself and anyone else who may have missed it Back in 2002, Canada signed on to an international treaty aimed at rehabilitating child soldiers.In fact, Canada was the first to ratify the so-called Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, a treaty that requires signatories to give special consideration to captured enemy fighters under the age of 18. The treaty says they are to be segregated from adult combatants. As well, those who capture children must make every effort to reintegrate them into society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 You seem to think justice=vengeance No, you think justice should equal vengeance. It doesn't, not quite yet at least. to me he needs to serve his full term for the crimes he committed. As determined by a kangaroo court with zero moral credibility. What do you think supporting or standing by that says about your character by the way? You seem to think that we should take in to account a criminal's upbringing and sentence him/her according to how bad their upbringing was, Well yeah, that's how our system usually works, especially when it's dealing with children. at some point people need to stop blaming their childhood and start taking responsibility for their actions being 20 and claiming your parents screwed you thats why you committed an offence doesn't cut it. Omar was 20 now when he was framed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Canada failed to up hold its agreement to an international treaty, as was covered earlier in this thread. I'll repost it for the benefit of yourself and anyone else who may have missed it Back in 2002, Canada signed on to an international treaty aimed at rehabilitating child soldiers.In fact, Canada was the first to ratify the so-called Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, a treaty that requires signatories to give special consideration to captured enemy fighters under the age of 18. The treaty says they are to be segregated from adult combatants. As well, those who capture children must make every effort to reintegrate them into society. I'm curious into how Canada failed to uphold this treaty. and although you've have posted "SOME" of what the treaty intentions are you have neglected to post some of the other portions. In fact the orginal and current Convention of child soldiers states the same that children can be held accountable for their actions...it is the punishment that differs from adults... International law does not prohibit the prosecution of children who commit war crimes, but the article 37 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child does limit the punishment that a child can receive including "Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offences committed by persons below eighteen years of age."[11] You also fail to mention that this Canadian Government and US government had come to agreement on the Max sentence to give young mr Omar.... had acted on Omars behalf keeping in mind that Omar is not the only Canadian held in custody by a foreign nation. We also have to keep in mind that Omars situation is not over,and perhaps rehabilitation is still forth coming. So i'd be interested in knowing what specfic act of the agreement did Canada violate ? Many child soldiers fought in the Civil war in Sierra Leone. In its wake the UN sanctioned the Special Court for Sierra Leone (SCSL) to try the participants for war crimes and other breaches of humanitarian law. The statute of the SCSL gave the court jurisdiction over persons aged 15 and older, however the Paris Principles state that children who participated in armed conflict: ... who are accused of crimes under international law allegedly committed while they were associated with armed forces or armed groups should be considered primarily as victims of offences against international law; not only as perpetrators. They must be treated in accordance with international law in a framework of restorative justice and social rehabilitation, consistent with international law which offers children special protection through numerous agreements and principles.[12] and this was reflected in the wording of article 7 of the SCSL statute which did not rule out prosecution but emphasised rehabilitation and society's reintegration. David Crane the first Chief Prosecutor of the Sierra Leone tribunal, chose to interpret the statute so that the tribunal's policy was to prosecute those who recruited the children rather than the children themselves no matter how heinous the crimes they had committed.[11] In the United States, prosecutors take a different view from David Crane and have repeatedly stated that they intend to try Omar Khadr, on several serious charges including murder, for offences they allege he committed in Afghanistan while fighting for the Taliban against United States forces while he was under sixteen years old. If found guilty under US law such a crime carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.[11] On 25 October 2010, Khadr pleaded guilty to murder in violation of the laws of war, attempted murder in violation of the laws of war, conspiracy, two counts of providing material support for terrorism and spying.[13][14] This was agreed as part of a plea bargain, which would see Khadr deported to Canada after one year to serve the remaining seven years there.[15] In a letter to the U.S. military commission at Guantanamo after the plea of guilty had been heard but before the announcement of sentence, Radhika Coomaraswamy, the UN secretary-general's special representative for children and armed conflict, wrote that Khadr represents the "classic child soldier narrative: recruited by unscrupulous groups to undertake actions at the bidding of adults to fight battles they barely understand", and suggested that Khadr to be released into a rehabilitation program.[16] Omar Khadr remained in Guantanamo Bay as of July 2012, and the Canadian government continued to face international criticism for their stonewalling of his repatriation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 And that trial as an adult included torture to obtain confession and the dubious legal authority of the U.S. to define who's a soldier, and who's an "enemy combatant." Even if the story that he threw the grenade was true, it was an act committed on a battlefield. The whole process of defining WHO Omar is is an important one, enemy combatant, does not have the same rights as a POW (prisoner of war). and there fore not afforded the same rights as a soldier, or one who is on the battlefield following all the rules of war....Omar was an insurgent , or terrorist, he belonged to an organization that makes the KKK look like my gram mas knitting club....Not only were they intent on killing Nato Soldiers and the coalition pers, but their own people , including women and children.... They have very few rights on the battlefield, in fact their very existance on the battle field is illigal, so there actions such as taking another life, is considered murder....this is spelled out black and white in the conventions and international law....So they are not afforded the WELL ALL FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR< they were protecting themselfs.....which is complete BS, if everyone had read all the transcripts and statements, it was Omars group who open the dance, when 3 Afghan policemen knocked on their door, Omars group answered it by cutting down the 3 with automatic fire.....why because they knew they're rights, they knew they would be arrested for being insurgents.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) They have very few rights on the battlefield, in fact their very existance on the battle field is illigal, so there actions such as taking another life, is considered murder... Our past actions in their region render our moral judgments about their morals moot. We're all murderers. Except Omar, he was just a little kid when he was dragged into our squabbles. Edited October 1, 2012 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Our past actions in their region render our moral judgments about their morals moot. We're all murderers. Except Omar, he was just a little kid when he was dragged into our squabbles. Eyeball if you think any nation leaves a conflict with it's morals intact your wrong, and if you think any soldier leaves a war zone with their morals in tact your wrong, and if you think a terrorist entered a war or conflict with any morals your wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 essential viewing: a review of the documentary: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Eyeball if you think any nation leaves a conflict with it's morals intact your wrong, and if you think any soldier leaves a war zone with their morals in tact your wrong, and if you think a terrorist entered a war or conflict with any morals your wrong. Army Guy if you think this claptrap justifies punishing a kid for being dragged into this pile of shit you're so lost it's disturbing. You're probably suffering from PTSD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Our past actions in their region render our moral judgments about their morals moot. We're all murderers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Army Guy if you think this claptrap justifies punishing a kid for being dragged into this pile of shit you're so lost it's disturbing.You're probably suffering from PTSD. No inter national law justifies punishing those that have committed crimes such as young mr Omar has....And if you think any of those terrorist have morals you kidding yourself, i mean really how many morals can you have to strap explosives onto a child and send them into a crowded market place full of women and children so that you can make a piont for your cause or plant explosives on a road way that is used by local population hoping to kill Coalition forces if you don't SO BE IT it was gods will....And i'm the one with PTSD....I forgot at 15 you don't have any moral values...in fact you don't have any vision of right or wrong it magically appears once your 16..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Omar is going to get full parole next summer then sue the government and win $10 million just like Arar. After that he will go on a mosque speaking tour raising money to build more mosques and schools. He will become a folk hero to those more radical mosques and schools we have in Canada where he will be speaking at. That is my prediction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Neil Macdonald: The Omar Khadr headache Khadr did plead guilty to throwing a hand grenade at an American special operations soldier on the Afghan battlefield in 2002, when he was 15 years of age. As most people understand the word, a terrorist is defined as someone who deliberately targets civilians, not soldiers in battle. But this soldier was part of the American invasion of Afghanistan, and those U.S. soldiers enjoyed a rather special legal status. They were empowered to capture and kill anyone who stood in their way, and Afghans, or anyone else on Afghan soil, were not allowed to fight back. To do so was a crime under international law, at least as interpreted by the White House, ... Eventually, Khadr agreed to a plea bargain admitting guilt, but one that took place in rather special circumstances. He had already served eight years in the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, and was facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life there if he didn’t plead guilty. That’s not the sort of leverage most prosecutors enjoy, particularly when they are dealing with someone who was 15 at the time of the offence. ... Toews, in his decision, lists several issues that “caused him concern” in deciding whether to allow Khadr, a Canadian citizen, to finish his sentence in Canada. Among them: that Khadr’s mother and older sister have openly applauded what he did in Afghanistan (would a judge be allowed to cite such a thing in considering punishment for any other 15-year-old murderer?); and that Khadr’s time in Guantanamo has radicalized him. Toews asserts this last bit without evident irony. Khadr, of course, would not have been radicalized in Guantanamo for anywhere near as long as he was had the government of Canada not for years resisted orders from its own courts to request his repatriation. (The Supreme Court, in fact, found that Canada had violated Khadr’s Charter rights by participating in illegal interrogation methods.) And nowhere does Toews address the fact that Khadr was a toddler when his father first began indoctrinating him in jihadism. Omar Khadr may well be a dangerous man now, at 26. Perhaps he is even dangerous enough to merit incarceration at Millhaven Penitentiary, a grim fortress that houses some of the most violent convicts in Canada. Certainly, though, he’s the only inmate at Millhaven serving time for something he did a decade ago when he was 15 years old. And by Vic Toews’s own logic, Canada’s government has had something to do with making him the person he is today. It does seem a bit disingenuous to blame Guantanamo for making Omar too dangerous for Canada, when Canada could have prevented that 'radicalization'. However, at this point I'll trust the 'due process' of the justice system for resolution. But I think it's disgusting that Toews/the Harper government demonizes Omar to play to their angry-at-the-world hardline core voters. Edited October 1, 2012 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Manny Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Omar is going to get full parole next summer then sue the government and win $10 million just like Arar. After that he will go on a mosque speaking tour raising money to build more mosques and schools. He will become a folk hero to those more radical mosques and schools we have in Canada where he will be speaking at. That is my prediction. Or, he might do exactly all that and become a folk hero to moderate mosques and schools we have in Canada where he will be speaking at. By the way Mr. Canada, never end a sentence with a preposition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Eyeball if you think any nation leaves a conflict with it's morals intact your wrong, and if you think any soldier leaves a war zone with their morals in tact your wrong, and if you think a terrorist entered a war or conflict with any morals your wrong. You are just a few rephrasings short of making this statement a moral masterpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think it's disgusting that the opposition are using Kadhr to gain political brownie points. He was taken to Bin Laden's terrorist camps at age 11, he was trained in small arms, AK-47s, PK guns and RPGS. He was a seasoned insurgent, laying land mines intended to kill Canadians and their allies. Some may want to give him a hero's welcome but they could reap what they sow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Omar is going to get full parole next summer then sue the government and win $10 million just like Arar. After that he will go on a mosque speaking tour raising money to build more mosques and schools. He will become a folk hero to those more radical mosques and schools we have in Canada where he will be speaking at. That is my prediction. No doubt. Perhaps he will speak against war, violent jihad, and indoctrination of children into violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Even his own mother said she does not want him back. Also, I like how we are accused of "vilifying" him. How can you vilifying someone who already is a villain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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