Tolerance In Public Schools

Michael Hardner · September 28, 2012

Your frame of reference is your own experiences.

I cannot measure it myself, I have no children. But I believe it's a case by case scenario. How much control are you willing to give up? That is a line in the sand you can only draw based on your own experiences.

It's not something I can define for you, you as a parent must make that call based kn what you know and feel.

Then what are we even talking about. You don't have kids, neither do I. It's a hypothetical situation, that we're not even sure how to discuss, i.e. a waste of time.

jacee · September 28, 2012

The way you explain it sounds very reasonable and I have no problem with that at all. Some people were making it sound as if they wanted small children watching hardcore porn, live sex acts and animal sex which isn't ok with me. Thanks for another great post.

Some people strongly object to their kids learning to value the kid with two Moms ... and they impose their exaggerated sexual obsessions on kids. Sick really.

Black Dog · September 28, 2012

The way you explain it sounds very reasonable and I have no problem with that at all. Some people were making it sound as if they wanted small children watching hardcore porn, live sex acts and animal sex which isn't ok with me.

:lol:

I don't think you can blame other people for your failure to comprehend basic concepts.

Now, can you please answer my question as to why it is so beyond the pale to introduce young children to the concept of sex? Let me frame it another way: if your 5 year old child asks you where babies come from, what would you tell them?

Mr.Canada · September 28, 2012

Now, can you please answer my question as to why it is so beyond the pale to introduce young children to the concept of sex? Let me frame it another way: if your 5 year old child asks you where babies come from, what would you tell them?

It's already happened and I explained it in basic terms, that's all that is required at this point in their development. I speak very directly with them. Explaining the good and bad of the world as we come accross it. I want them to be able to think for themselves and not just believe something because tv or a teacher or even I said it.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Mr.Canada

Black Dog · September 28, 2012

It's already happened and I explained it in basic terms, that's all that is required at this point in their development. I speak very directly with them. Explaining the good and bad of the world as we come accross it. I want them to be able to think for themselves and not just believe something because tv or a teacher or even I said it.

You mean you want them to think the way you want them to think. If not, you probably wouldn't be so opposed to exposing them to different viewpoints.

GostHacked · September 28, 2012

Then what are we even talking about. You don't have kids, neither do I. It's a hypothetical situation, that we're not even sure how to discuss, i.e. a waste of time.

It's not a waste of time at all. Just because I don't have kids does not mean I do not see the importance of knowing when to draw the line as a parent.

Yes we are talking some hypothetical situations, but a lot of what is discussed here on the MLW is simply that, hypothetical.

Michael Hardner · September 28, 2012

It's not a waste of time at all. Just because I don't have kids does not mean I do not see the importance of knowing when to draw the line as a parent.

Yes we are talking some hypothetical situations, but a lot of what is discussed here on the MLW is simply that, hypothetical.

It's double hypothetical - I don't have children and I am asked to imagine a hypothetical situation within that hypothetical. Fine, then.

I expect that I would teach my values in the home, and in the event where societal values taught in the school clashed with mine - I would explain as best I could the difference and if they're old enough, ask them to discuss with me.

wyly · September 28, 2012

It's not a waste of time at all. Just because I don't have kids does not mean I do not see the importance of knowing when to draw the line as a parent.

Yes we are talking some hypothetical situations, but a lot of what is discussed here on the MLW is simply that, hypothetical.

having kids doesn't make you an expert on kids any idiot can make a kid, I pity kids who have a mr canada as a father...becoming a parent comes without training, babies don't come with instruction manuals, while experience with kids does help that doesn't mean that not having kids doesn't negate your opinion...probably the most knowledgeable person i know regarding child behavior has no kids, never married but has PHD in child behaviour, when i had a serious issue it was her I called for advice, despite my 25yrs experience as a dad she knows a hell of a lot more than I do...

kraychik · September 28, 2012

Your child isn't a pet or lawn ornament. They will grow up to be an adult and a citizen in my community, so I have a say in what is taught to them.

This post really reveals just how extreme your sickening leftist ideology is. By this standard, the government can justify virtually any social engineering program. Of course, you still sincerely believe that you're a pragmatic centrist.

Michael Hardner · September 28, 2012

This post really reveals just how extreme your sickening leftist ideology is.

You are unable to engage in any level of discussion without moralizing to the point where you seem like you're going to pass out. Community standards have been a part of education since forever.

When you call an accepted standard 'extreme' you should reconsider: you may be speaking about your own perspective on things.

By this standard, the government can justify virtually any social engineering program.

Theoretically you could - if the community supported it. Don't you trust the people ? Wild Bill does - he's a populist.

Of course, you still sincerely believe that you're a pragmatic centrist.

I do. And your new evidence that I am one because I support community standards in setting a school's curriculum is unlikely to sway anybody who isn't a frothing idealogue.

wyly · September 30, 2012

You are unable to engage in any level of discussion without moralizing to the point where you seem like you're going to pass out. Community standards have been a part of education since forever.

When you call an accepted standard 'extreme' you should reconsider: you may be speaking about your own perspective on things.

Theoretically you could - if the community supported it. Don't you trust the people ? Wild Bill does - he's a populist.

I do. And your new evidence that I am one because I support community standards in setting a school's curriculum is unlikely to sway anybody who isn't a frothing idealogue.

and this what societies have always done...

betsy · September 30, 2012

If the community decides that you will be offended by what your kids are taught then I guess you're out of luck.

The so-called "community's" decision is guided by the ideology in power. Right now, it's the liberal thinking that prevails. I wonder if you'll have that same response if let's say the group in power are extremists like the Taliban (that's the only thing that comes to mind right now).

Anyway, do we really still have a "community?" Isn't it that a community is supposed to be composed of like-minded people?

"Having a say," is different from, "imposing your will."

Michael Hardner · September 30, 2012

The so-called "community's" decision is guided by the ideology in power. Right now, it's the liberal thinking that prevails. I wonder if you'll have that same response if let's say the group in power are extremists like the Taliban (that's the only thing that comes to mind right now).

If the Taliban take power in Canada, I expect that my 'concerns' about the education system will be low on my list of priorities.

Anyway, do we really still have a "community?" Isn't it that a community is supposed to be composed of like-minded people?

Communities never have 100% like-minded people, but they have people with common interests.

kraychik · September 30, 2012

Michael Hardner's position summarised: "Since your child will live in my community, I have a right to have input into what they're taught."

It doesn't get any sicker than that, folks. The solution, of course, is introduce some form of free market principles into education. At the very least, "school choice" in the form of school vouchers. That way schools will be more accountable to parents, and less accountable to rabble like Michael Hardner.

Michael Hardner · September 30, 2012

Michael Hardner's position summarised: "Since your child will live in my community, I have a right to have input into what they're taught."

Yes, that is right.

It doesn't get any sicker than that, folks.

Again, community standards have been part of education since forever. Your assessment of a widely accepted standard as 'sick' is evidence of your fringe beliefs, and inability to put your extreme views in perspective.

Also, we covered this already - you don't seem to have been listening.

kraychik · September 30, 2012

Yes, that is right.

Again, community standards have been part of education since forever. Your assessment of a widely accepted standard as 'sick' is evidence of your fringe beliefs, and inability to put your extreme views in perspective.

Also, we covered this already - you don't seem to have been listening.

The funny thing is you don't realise how broad of a term "community standards" actually is. "Community standards" also determined the design of the iPhone, although that's something entirely different than the "community standards" you're invoking, in which non-stakeholders like yourself pretend to be stakeholders.

kraychik · September 30, 2012

Hey man, you use your phone in my community, so I have a say in how's it's built and distributed. Same thing goes for the colours on your garage door, and political signs you put on your lawn. It's my community, dude. We are the 99%!

Michael Hardner · September 30, 2012

...in which non-stakeholders like yourself pretend to be stakeholders.

You can't prevent me from expressing my opinion to policy makers, and policy makers listen to citizens. Therefore I'm a stakeholder.

Mr.Canada · September 30, 2012

This is why Catholic schools are better. We don't have these arguments and instead focus on teaching children morally, not worrying about politics too much.

Jiblethead · September 30, 2012

This is why Catholic schools are better. We don't have these arguments and instead focus on teaching children morally, not worrying about politics too much.

exactly, everyone nit-picks far too much, and people point the finger at teachers rather than students. These days with internet, i phones, etc. students can easily find disctactions, while in class especially. the focus needs to be turned back onto the fundamentals, and we need to stop being so soft on students

socialist · October 1, 2012

exactly, everyone nit-picks far too much, and people point the finger at teachers rather than students. These days with internet, i phones, etc. students can easily find disctactions, while in class especially. the focus needs to be turned back onto the fundamentals, and we need to stop being so soft on students

Jib, fundamentals like the old fashioned "Three R's" are not important anymore. The three r's are a 1960s thing. that's why many on this forum don't understand 21st century education's pursuit to equip learners with 21st century skills.

Jiblethead · October 1, 2012

fundamentals might not be important at our age but what about a 12 year old who has never heard of them?

kraychik · October 1, 2012

You can't prevent me from expressing my opinion to policy makers, and policy makers listen to citizens. Therefore I'm a stakeholder.

This is just another way to spin your extreme leftism into something more semantically palatable. In your mind, any public policy can be justified as long as there is sufficient public support behind it, because everything that's done in society, in one way or another, happens within and affects our community/society. It's straight out of the Communist Manifesto. You don't understand the need for limitations on government to protect the sovereignty of the individual (you demonstrate this lack of understanding regularly).

More importantly, however, you completely missed the point, again, and think that everything is somehow your business because it happens in your community or broader society.

Edited October 1, 2012 by kraychik

socialist · October 1, 2012

This is just another way to spin your extreme leftism into something more semantically palatable. In your mind, any public policy can be justified as long as there is sufficient public support behind it, because everything that's done in society, in one way or another, happens within and affects our community/society. It's straight out of the Communist Manifesto. You don't understand the need for limitations on government to protect the sovereignty of the individual (you demonstrate this lack of understanding regularly).

More importantly, however, you completely missed the point, again, and think that everything is somehow your business because it happens in your community or broader society.

However, the State is gaining more control and there is little you can do about it. Suck it up and accept it. The state knows and wants what is best for kids.

Michael Hardner · October 1, 2012

I see that you edited this post. I can't imagine what you edited out of it.

This is just another way to spin your extreme leftism ... straight out of the Communist Manifesto... protect the sovereignty of the individual ... everything is somehow your business ...

Yes. I think this is the third or fourth post where I have pointed out that community standards in education have existed since forever, and that your extreme ideology doesn't seem to be apparent to you.

Let me put it this way: how many people do you know who agree with your take on education ? I doubt I know anybody who disagrees with mine. I'm not trying to make you feel bad about yourself, just to help you understand that you're probably close to alone in your thinking that community input to education is a bad thing - whether it comes from me or any other citizen.