Are people who don't have kids selfish?

[Black Dog]

Basically, putting it in the bluntest terms I can, I guess it's a tradeoff of freedom in your adult years vs company in your old age.

I can see that and honestly I don't see the appeal of sacrificing the best years of your life so your crappiest years will be a little less crappy.

[carepov]

Basically, putting it in the bluntest terms I can, I guess it's a tradeoff of freedom in your adult years vs company in your old age.

I can see that and honestly I don't see the appeal of sacrificing the best years of your life so your crappiest years will be a little less crappy.

Each of your attitudes are quite logical and perhaps they do apply to you. Yes having kids is a trade-off but it is not really a sacrifice as the rewards start right away.

In my experience, from the time that you know that you are going to have a baby, and certainly from the second see your baby born, there is no doubt that you made the right decision to have kids.

[Guest American Woman]

Basically, putting it in the bluntest terms I can, I guess it's a tradeoff of freedom in your adult years vs company in your old age.

There are quite a few years between the adult years that people are raising kids and old age; you seem to have skipped over those years entirely. Furthermore, it's a bit more than "company" in your old age, and kids certainly add more to one's life than "company in your old age." The fact that you see it that way tells me that you have no idea what kids to bring to a person's life. That's not saying that kids are for you (and it's not because of your lifestyle - many people with your lifestyle fit kids into it), but you obviously don't even begin to understand all that kids bring to one's life.

I can see that and honestly I don't see the appeal of sacrificing the best years of your life so your crappiest years will be a little less crappy.

I'll say the same to you as I said to Bonam - you obviously have no clue as to what kids add to a person's life. I'll also add that it could very well be that kids aren't for you, but I hardly "sacrificed" anything to raise my kids - and I certainly didn't go from "the best years of my life" to "crappy years." Do you think you have about twenty good years, and that's it? Cuz if that's true, you've about used half of yours up. Furthermore, whether or not one's old age is "crappy" depends mostly on the person - which, btw, is true of the "best years" of a person's life, too.

Edited September 21, 2012 by American Woman

[Wilber]

Well maybe you should pay closer attention to the original material.

Yeah: and? I'm not advocating everybody stop having kids.

Again: I'm paying for that stuff with my own tax dollars. And I may not be providing labour, but neither am I sticking society with the cost of creating more cogs for the machine (such as education). And I'm subsidizing other people's kids while I'm at it.

You're not subsidizing anyone. Someone else paid for your education and that machine had to exist for you to get where you are.

Far be it for me to suggest someone have kids if they really don't want them but please, no hard done by nonsense.

The world's gone nuts, I almost completely agree with AW on this one.

[Black Dog]

You're not subsidizing anyone. Someone else paid for your education and that machine had to exist for you to get where you are.

So I'm not subsidizing anyone, but others subsidized me? Uh..okay.

Far be it for me to suggest someone have kids if they really don't want them but please, no hard done by nonsense.

Who said we were hard done by?

Edited September 21, 2012 by Black Dog

[Wilber]

So I'm not subsidizing anyone, but others subsidized me? Uh..okay.

No, someone else paid for their education. Point being, none of us gets through this life alone. We all rely on those older than us when very young and those younger when we are very old.

Who said we were hard done by?

That was just in response to your comment about subsidizing other peoples kids. If you want to go that route, they could say they are subsidizing you by providing the citizens you will rely on in your old age.

[-TSS-]

You are selfish either way, if you want children or don't want them. Or that's the impression I've got from what people say. Some argue about saving the world and not producing any more human beings here to destroy the earth while others wret about ageing population and how there is bound to be a future pensions-crisis unless people have more children.

Personally, I've noticed that many people who have children harbour a mindset about people who deliberately have chosen to remain childless as if those people are some sort of freeriders of people who shirk their duty as if producing children ever was a duty in the first place.

I have never heard anyone who have voluntarily remain childless complain about other people having children.

[Guest American Woman]

I have never heard anyone who have voluntarily remain childless complain about other people having children.

You must not be listening, then.

[-TSS-]

This debate is useless for Canadians or Americans as endless immigration will always provide new people to cater for the needs of their societies.

This debate is much more serious in most European countries where the birth-rate is below the death-rate and as nation-states people are very much more against immigration than in North-America.

[Wilber]

This debate is useless for Canadians or Americans as endless immigration will always provide new people to cater for the needs of their societies.

Either way, you are depending on someone else to have children.

[RB]

you are allowed to make choices that make you happy so here is some respect for those who do not want kids.

Having said that, true be told, you are really losing out. Children are the joys you can always enjoy, even with their attitude. Evenfully, material things don't matter any longer, and the kids are really all you "live" for.

My dad passed away when I was a kid and since, any older gentleman would be my dad tough one. My feelings are if you don't want kids, or won't be there for them, easy choice really.

Edited September 22, 2012 by RB

[RB]

In addtion to the above there is a recent study done - in your darkess moment, say life or death the person who gives you the most strenght to carry on.

# 1 - wife

# 2 - children

and it is because of the love you give and the love that is return by these folks

just saying

[GostHacked]

Why do more and more people have to choose not to have kids? Why can't more and more people just have a couple of kids instead of a whole brood* if overpopulation is the concern?

*As in "19 Kids and Counting"

You can look at China's 'one child policy' to see what can go wrong with that line of thinking.

Personally, I am now in a financial position where having a child won't be that much of a financial burden. The only thing keeping me from that is finding a woman that is in the same position and that has the same line of thinking I have.

[Guest American Woman]

You can look at China's 'one child policy' to see what can go wrong with that line of thinking.

You can look at China to see what could go wrong if everyone had a large brood of kids. I'm talking taking personal responsibility, not a government mandate.

[GostHacked]

You can look at China to see what could go wrong if everyone had a large brood of kids. I'm talking taking personal responsibility, not a government mandate.

The one child policy was a response to the large broods and the booming Chinese population.

[Guest American Woman]

The one child policy was a response to the large broods and the booming Chinese population.

Yes, I realize that - which is why I said one only need to look to China to see what could happen if people don't start taking personal responsibility. In other words, we could face the same over-population problem.

[Moonlight Graham]

People who don't have kids do so for many different reasons. Doesn't make them more selfish than those who do have kids (who do so also for selfish reasons).

[msj]

People who don't have kids do so for many different reasons. Doesn't make them more selfish than those who do have kids (who do so also for selfish reasons).

I agree.

I also think that people who do have kids should spend more time asking themselves why they are having kids as opposed to people trying to figure out why people don't have kids.

[BC_chick]

Black Dog, forget the money part, you know what's awful? Listening to nursery rhymes on your morning commute! Discretely turning the volume down using the steering-wheel controls but you hear a 'louder!' coming from the back seat. Then there's the having to make dinner every *every* *single* *night*. And making small talk with other parents you secretly can't stand.

But you know, something amazing happens also along the way. Something about the way this little person loves you and depends on you.

It all doesn't really make sense to an observer, I know. Parenthood is one of those rare inexplicable phenomenon that nobody really understands conceptually.

I also didn't really want kids in life. Even now I find myself bewildered by the weight of it all...

But I wouldn't change a thing. You really don't miss what you've never had, but once you have it, it changes everything.

ETA - rereading my post I guess in a way having a kid is actually a pretty selfish thing to do. The world certainly doesn't need any more kids. Kids aren't really going to be there for you in the future. It's just about us and how they make us feel.

Edited September 23, 2012 by BC_chick

[BC_chick]

On the other hand, I'm precisely the kind of person that enjoys a lifestyle that is completely incompatible with having kids. Whether it's climbing mountains, going on long vacations in the middle of nowhere, working every waking moment for days on end, or whatever else. Just having the freedom to, at any moment, do whatever the heck you want. And obviously having kids totally restricts that, as you must now be responsible for their care, safety, education, company, etc, 24/7 for years (at least if you aspire to be a good parent anyway). Most of my friends have the same attitude: they cannot wrap their heads around the idea of giving up all that freedom. Now, of course I'm sure the process of raising kids is also very emotionally rewarding, but the shear amount of work and responsibility is staggering to think about.

I've always been an outdoor enthusiast and as you know, we hate gym life. But now that I don't have time to go for a 100K ride on my bike I had to join a gym. I do spin classes and run on a treadmill.

I come home and look at my collection of bikes hanging on the wall.

Tell me about it....

(but I still stand by my post previous to this one)

Edited September 23, 2012 by BC_chick

[Guest American Woman]

People who don't have kids do so for many different reasons. Doesn't make them more selfish than those who do have kids (who do so also for selfish reasons).

I agree. Some people choose not to have kids for selfish reasons and some people do choose to have them for selfish reasons. In my opinion, not having them just because you don't want to give up your lifestyle fits the definition of selfish, but having them just so you can live vicariously through them, putting expectations on them to be what you want them to be, is also selfish.

Of course that doesn't account for everyone on either end by a long shot. It's totally inaccurate to paint everyone who has kids or everyone who chooses not to have kids with the same brush.

[Wilber]

If a person doesn't want kids, they shouldn't have them. Bringing up kids is expensive and can be very difficult at times. On the other hand, even if I didn't do it that well, it is the best thing I have done in my life.

[bleeding heart]

If a person doesn't want kids, they shouldn't have them. Bringing up kids is expensive and can be very difficult at times. On the other hand, even if I didn't do it that well, it is the best thing I have done in my life.

Yeah, I wouldn't change it for anything.

Though I admit I find the "it's selfish not to have children" argument a little strange, and off-putting.

[Guest Manny]

I agree with most of the views presented here, and each person has the right to choose whether they want children or not. That's all fine and well, on a personal scale. But when you look at the larger issue, some interesting questions can be raised. Of course we've all heard about the concerns that birth rates are dropping in westernized societies, in particular among people who have really embraced the western culture as their lifestyle. And there are many people who haven't done that. Mostly immigrants and those who choose to maintain their old-world culture while living here. That's fine too, but the observers may note that these old-world families tend to produce many offspring. Part of that may be due to the number of children who die in their ancestral lands, child mortality is much higher and thus the need to have big families. Secondly in those countries there is more poverty, so it's advantageous to have more people in your family to earn income, to help the family to survive in some way, such as in farming. Agricultural society required larger families.

The outcome of this is that the demographic in our society is changing. For example in some of the big cities there are places where Punjabi is the second biggest language spoken, in that demographic. Fact is that this will change the core values of our society, so this issue could be very significant over a longer time period. It's natural for things to change. But if we want to maintain the culture, we have to control the culture as it were. An idea that is very distasteful, to the equalitists.

What do we conclude from that? We must breed. Breed! For democracy...

[-TSS-]

Imagine what the one child-policy will cause in the long run as baby boys are preferred over girls. At some point in the future there will be tens of millions of young Chinese men who are unable to find a wife for themselves or even a girlfrined simply because the number of men is going to be so much higher than the number of women of roughly the same age.

Even though China is developing into an economic super-power not all men are going to be rich enough to import themselves a wife from some poorer country.