dre Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) I don't see how Iran using nukes automatically means they commit suicide, Dr. Dre. Sez who? If they used a terrorist group as a proxy, they have plausible deniability. Terrorist groups are not countries. They are "private" interests. How could a country justify retaliating against Iran for SUSPECTING they were behind a terrorist nuke? However, let's assume for the sake of argument that Iran steps up and lobs some nukes at Israel. They have the missiles so the distance between is very short. No one would have time to react defensively. BOOM! Bye bye little Israel. Now what? The world has a fait accompli. Israel is gone, so she can't retaliate, unless she happens to have some submarines with nukes hiding under the water. Would the world accept the US or any other country nuking Iran? Killing perhaps millions of its citizens? Remember, Iran is not really a representative democracy. It is more of a religious dictatorship. Would it be acceptable to kill citizens who had no say and thus no input into the decision to destroy Israel? No, a retaliatory strike from any other country but Israel itself is not likely. A regime change being forced on Iran would be a certainty but would the mullahs care? From their POV, they would have accomplished their goal of wiping Israel from the face of the earth. These folks tend to take the long view. They themselves might lose power but their religion would still have a strong influence. Some other religious government would likely arise with different faces but the same values and goals. It might take a few decades but hey, they would likely think it worth the wait. I would like to hear your reasons to believe that Iran would automatically be committing suicide. It just doesn't seem so to me but perhaps I'm missing something. These folks tend to take the long view. They themselves might lose power but their religion would still have a strong influence. I dont see any indication of that at all. Irans leader has been pretty careful, and focused on preserving himself and his regime. This whole caricature some of you have in your head of being some evil maniacle genius isnt real. People worked very hard to plant it in your head. That doesnt mean Iran is going to be winning any awards for being a fantastic global citizen (and neither are we unless we give those awards to ourselves), but it means that the Iranian regime is pretty careful, and pretty rational. Like I said, a way more plausible scenario is that Iran wants nuclear weapons as a detterent to aggression. Would that be reasonable? Sure. They have suffered multiple invasions by their neighbors with the tacit approval and support of the west. Then we name them as a member of an "Axis of evil", and immediately invade one of the other countries named. Now we are having rather open and casual conversations about whether would bomb the shit out of them or not We dont know if Iran even has a nuclear weapons program and all this sabre rattling just makes it harder for us to ever find out. But if any country in the world can make a logical rational case for wanting a nuclear detterent its Iran. I would like to hear your reasons to believe that Iran would automatically be committing suicide. It just doesn't seem so to me but perhaps I'm missing something. First of all MAD doctrine is about perception. Regardless of what will really happen all thats required for MAD to be in place is a reasonable expectation that if you attack another nuclear power, they are going to retaliate. I dont believe for a second that Iran is operating under the assumption that they can start nuking their neighbors (especially nuclear ones) without consequences. Edited September 12, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
eyeball Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 We marginalize our religious fanatics. Iran actively supports and promotes them to violence. Actually we elect a few of our's to office, where they actively support and promote violence. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wild Bill Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 I dont see any indication of that at all. Irans leader has been pretty careful, and focused on preserving himself and his regime. This whole caricature some of you have in your head of being some evil maniacle genius isnt real. People worked very hard to plant it in your head. That doesnt mean Iran is going to be winning any awards for being a fantastic global citizen (and neither are we unless we give those awards to ourselves), but it means that the Iranian regime is pretty careful, and pretty rational. Like I said, a way more plausible scenario is that Iran wants nuclear weapons as a detterent to aggression. Would that be reasonable? Sure. They have suffered multiple invasions by their neighbors with the tacit approval and support of the west. Then we name them as a member of an "Axis of evil", and immediately invade one of the other countries named. Now we are having rather open and casual conversations about whether would bomb the shit out of them or not We dont know if Iran even has a nuclear weapons program and all this sabre rattling just makes it harder for us to ever find out. But if any country in the world can make a logical rational case for wanting a nuclear detterent its Iran. Multiple invasions? I only remember their war with Iraq. Were there more in recent history? As for the Iranian leader, I believe he is just a figurehead. The unelected Ayatollahs are the true power. As for having a nuclear weapons program, all those centifuges produce a quantum amount more than they would ever need for any peaceful nuclear reactor program. There can only be two reasons for that quantity. They are either building bombs or intend to sell to those who make bombs. It is the difference between a backyard garden and thousands of acres of wheatfields on the prairies. Nothing else makes any sense. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
dre Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Multiple invasions? I only remember their war with Iraq. Were there more in recent history? As for the Iranian leader, I believe he is just a figurehead. The unelected Ayatollahs are the true power. As for having a nuclear weapons program, all those centifuges produce a quantum amount more than they would ever need for any peaceful nuclear reactor program. There can only be two reasons for that quantity. They are either building bombs or intend to sell to those who make bombs. It is the difference between a backyard garden and thousands of acres of wheatfields on the prairies. Nothing else makes any sense. Multiple invasions? I only remember their war with Iraq. Were there more in recent history? Yes they got tag teamed by the UK, Russia and other commonwealth countries in 1941. As for the Iranian leader, I believe he is just a figurehead. The unelected Ayatollahs are the true power. Im not talking about the figurehead. Im talking about Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei, Irans Supreme Ruler. Thats always who Im referencing when I talk about the leadership of the Iran. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted September 12, 2012 Author Report Posted September 12, 2012 Im not talking about the figurehead. Im talking about Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei, Irans Supreme Ruler. Thats always who Im referencing when I talk about the leadership of the Iran. Excellent clarification. Quote
wyly Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Multiple invasions? I only remember their war with Iraq. Were there more in recent history? there was the 1953 CIA coup(ok the USA weren't neighbours but they're still pissed about over it and who can blame them. Soviet union and Britain/commonwealth invaded in 1941, during WWI it was occupied by Turkey, Russia and Britain... and does recent even matter? dear leader is still crowing about the war of 1812, americans are constantly tearing every time they sing "bombs bursting in air"...can't deny patriotism of others as long as we cling to the same historic fantasies... As for the Iranian leader, I believe he is just a figurehead. The unelected Ayatollahs are the true power. it's their chosen form of government and none of our business...many canadians worship a engish granny...the King of swaziland has absolute power do you care? I don't it's not our problem that's for zwazi's to deal with....As for having a nuclear weapons program, all those centifuges produce a quantum amount more than they would ever need for any peaceful nuclear reactor program. There can only be two reasons for that quantity. They are either building bombs or intend to sell to those who make bombs.very inefficient centrifuges that produce fuel very slowly, and how would you know what they require?..and according to a former nuclear engineer Iran has the incorrect type of nuclear power plant to supply weapons grade material...http://www.globalresearch.ca/is-iran-building-nukes-an-analysis/ it appears you're buying into another WMD fantasy... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) As for having a nuclear weapons program, all those centifuges produce a quantum amount more than they would ever need for any peaceful nuclear reactor program. There can only be two reasons for that quantity. They are either building bombs or intend to sell to those who make bombs. Its scary that you would make that kind of statement because it shows the degree to which people make assumptions. I mean here you are bolding proclaiming with absolutely certainty that Iran is either building nuclear weapons or material to sell for building nuclear weapons. The problem is theres absolutely no evidence to support this. In fact... Its hard to find anyone at all that is actually privvy to real information and intelligence that believes Iran has a nuclear program. Leon Panetta, US Secretary of Defense... Are they trying to develop a nuclear weapon? No. But we know that they're trying to develop a nuclear capability. And that's what concerns us. And our red line to Iran is do not develop a nuclear weapon. That's a red line for us." 2/8/12, Face the Nation I think [iran is] developing a nuclear capability [but] our intelligence makes clear that they haven't made the decision to develop a nuclear weapon. 2/28/12, Senate Budget Committee US Director of National Intelligence James Clapper We continue to assess Iran is keeping open the option to develop nuclear weapons in part by developing various nuclear capabilities that better position it to produce such weapons, should it choose to do so. We do not know, however, if Iran will eventually decide to build nuclear weapons.[…] We continue to judge Iran's nuclear decisionmaking is guided by a cost-benefit approach, which offers the international community opportunities to influence Tehran. 01/31/12, Unclassified Statement for the Record on the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the U.S. Intelligence Community for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence I do […] I think they're keeping themselves in a position to make that decision but there are certain things they have not yet done and have not done for some time. [...]"02/16/12, Senate Armed Services Committee Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz, head of the Israeli military (IDF) [iran] is going step by step to the place where it will be able to decide whether to manufacture a nuclear bomb. It hasn't decided to go the extra mile. I don't think [iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei] will want to go the extra mile. I think the Iranian leadership is composed of very rational people. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak [iran has] not yet decided to manufacture atomic weapons."04/25/12, The Raw Story There we have the Secretary of Defense, the head of the Israeli IDF, the Israeli Defense MInister, and the US Directory of national intelligence, all stating in no uncertain terms that the not only does the intelligence available NOT show that Iran has a nuclear weapons program, but it makes it pretty clear that at present they do not. Phone those guys up WildBill, because you obviously know something they dont! Armchair hawks on MLW know better! "OF COURSE THEY ARE BUILDING NUCLEAR WEAPONS!" They proclaim. "ITS A KNOWN FACT!". But its not! Im sorry its just not. ALmost nobody will access to real intelligence believes Iran has a nuclear weapons program. But nobody freaking cares! The rhetoric will continue facts be damned. And sadly the only conclusion I is that the people beating this drum simply dont care if Iran is a threat or not. They just wanna see Iran get bombed, because "they think Iranians are dicks" Edited September 12, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Moonbox Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Actually we elect a few of our's to office, where they actively support and promote violence. I anticipated you'd say that. That's straight out of the "Irrational Sensationalist" handbook. You need to include neo-con, fascist and some mention of corporate croney-ism to score full points though. A Lex Luther reference earns bonus points. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
eyeball Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 That's straight out of the "Irrational Sensationalist" handbook. No it's not. We in the west elect people who believe some of the craziest religious shit imaginable and they also support and promote violence, especially in the region in question. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Shady Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 Looks like Haper was correct in pulling Canadian diplomats from Middle East embassies. Much to the chagrin of several posters in the forum. You can tell which ones they are by the egg on their face. Quote
Wild Bill Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) Im not talking about the figurehead. Im talking about Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei, Irans Supreme Ruler. Thats always who Im referencing when I talk about the leadership of the Iran. Sorry. I thought HE was the figurehead! Is that the same guy the aliens beamed up to their mother ship when he went to the UN? Whenever I hear about something he said or did I am always overwhelmed with a feeling of warmth and good will. Edited September 12, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
dre Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) Sorry. I thought HE was the figurehead! Is that the same guy the aliens beamed up to their mother ship when he went to the UN? No Amadinijaad is the figure head. Whenever I hear about something he said or did I am always overwhelmed with a feeling of warmth and good will. That makes one of us. Edited September 12, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wild Bill Posted September 12, 2012 Report Posted September 12, 2012 You know, I can't help but wonder why so many other countries, some with considerable power, consider Iran to be such a threat they might even start a war over it. Wars are not just bloody but frightfully expensive. They also have a nasty habit of leaving you the loser. Certainly, they may change the political climate in ways you do not desire. I guess they are all either stupid or just love war! That must be it. After reading so much here on MLW it is obvious that Iran's leadership are all just super nice guys, unfairly maligned for no good reason at all. Learn something new every day! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
eyeball Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 You know, I can't help but wonder why so many other countries, some with considerable power, consider Iran to be such a threat they might even start a war over it. Wars are not just bloody but frightfully expensive. They're also handsomely profitable. They also have a nasty habit of leaving you the loser. Certainly, they may change the political climate in ways you do not desire. That's just the cost, you can dump that into society like it was so much toxic waste into the ocean. Easy peasy. I guess they are all either stupid or just love war! No, those would be the rubes who cajole everyone else to suck up to them as well. That must be it. After reading so much here on MLW it is obvious that Iran's leadership are all just super nice guys, unfairly maligned for no good reason at all. Really? I can't imagine why anyone would ever say such a thing about such a malignant tyrant myself. Learn something new every day! Okay, you're on, I'd really like to learn who it is here at MLW that has ever said, and I quote, Iran's leadership are all just super nice guys Show me. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Moonbox Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 No it's not. We in the west elect people who believe some of the craziest religious shit imaginable and they also support and promote violence, especially in the region in question. How many Islamic embassies have been stormed over the last few years? How many Canadian or American mosques have had suicide bombers? When was the last time one of these elected officials caught launching RPG's at Islamic dignitaries? Yeah. I thought so. Our frothing Bible-Thumpers have nowhere near the conviction, nor the support, to be considered in anyway NEAR the same league as the type of person who straps a shrapnel bomb to himself and murders 50 people. If some red neck in Calgary did something like that, he'd be reviled as a villain of the worst kind. His family would be shamed and the media would flay him. In parts of the middle east, that same moron would be revered as a martyr. If you can't see the difference then you need to get your head checked because that's scary. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
eyeball Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 How many Islamic embassies have been stormed over the last few years? How many Canadian or American mosques have had suicide bombers? When was the last time one of these elected officials caught launching RPG's at Islamic dignitaries? Yeah. I thought so. Our frothing Bible-Thumpers have nowhere near the conviction, nor the support, to be considered in anyway NEAR the same league as the type of person who straps a shrapnel bomb to himself and murders 50 people. If some red neck in Calgary did something like that, he'd be reviled as a villain of the worst kind. His family would be shamed and the media would flay him. In parts of the middle east, that same moron would be revered as a martyr. If you can't see the difference then you need to get your head checked because that's scary. That's right, our BT's definitely play above their game, they command enormous respect in much of the world, too much for anyone's good, they use high tech weapons and even the most moronic one's are re-elected. Of course they'd probably have an official deferral before ever strapping themselves to a bomb. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 You know, I can't help but wonder why so many other countries, some with considerable power, consider Iran to be such a threat they might even start a war over it. Wars are not just bloody but frightfully expensive. They also have a nasty habit of leaving you the loser. Certainly, they may change the political climate in ways you do not desire. I guess they are all either stupid or just love war! That must be it. After reading so much here on MLW it is obvious that Iran's leadership are all just super nice guys, unfairly maligned for no good reason at all. Learn something new every day! So thats it? More bluster? No response to all my quotes from top Iraeli and US officials? I can't help but wonder why so many other countries, some with considerable power, consider Iran to be such a threat they might even start a war over it. You dont know if any countries really want to go to war over it, and even supposing they did you dont really know if its because they consider Iran any kind of real threat or clear and present danger. That must be it. After reading so much here on MLW it is obvious that Iran's leadership are all just super nice guys, unfairly maligned for no good reason at all. Youre just talking to imaginary voices in your head now. Irans leadership are religious conservative hardliners. Unpleasant folks. Nobody has said anything different. But when you have people trying to paint the world as an Austin Powers movie with Iran as doctor evil, Im sorry, but youre going to called on it. Its a fantasy. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Moonbox Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 That's right, our BT's definitely play above their game, they command enormous respect in much of the world, too much for anyone's good, they use high tech weapons and even the most moronic one's are re-elected. Of course they'd probably have an official deferral before ever strapping themselves to a bomb. *yawn* Can't really say much in response to that. You're clearly either not interested in a discussion, or you're so out to lunch that you're not worth the effort. You don't have to like the current government, but comparing them to a jihadist? That's such a weak and unreasonable argument I just feel sorry for you. It's pathetic really. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
eyeball Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 *yawn* Can't really say much in response to that. You're clearly either not interested in a discussion, or you're so out to lunch that you're not worth the effort. You don't have to like the current government, but comparing them to a jihadist? That's such a weak and unreasonable argument I just feel sorry for you. It's pathetic really. Bite me goof. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Moonbox Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Charles Anthony Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 Everybody, Stop the childishness. Comments like the last two only bring down the quality of the discussions. Ch. A. Quote We do not have time for a meeting of the flat earth society. << Où sont mes amis ? Ils sont ici, ils sont ici... >>
PIK Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 Radio reporting a rumour that a mob is forming at the swiss embassy. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Argus Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 None of those institutions have taken that position. They dont want any more countries with nukes, and they want to make sure Iran isnt building them because its illegal. Thats not the same thing is believing Iran would immediately use them to commit suicide if it DID build one. Do you really think the world would be upset if Canada announced it was building nukes? It is the instability of the Iranian regime which causes the concern. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 You absolutely can say the same thing about Iran. Giving a nuclear device to terrorists would be suicide every bit as much as Iran using it itself. Its just pure silliness. A realistic comparison would be pakistan. Another Islamic nuclear state, with a long history of arming the Taliban. Its one thing providing support for terrorists but giving them the output of a massive industrial complex that consumes a significant part of a countries GDP is just something either Iran or Pakistan is going to do. We don't know that. How much they spend on terrorists and on undermining other governments is certainly not something Iran is likely to publish. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 13, 2012 Report Posted September 13, 2012 Make no mistake, we should have nothing at all to do with dictatorships and tyranny. Can you spot the difference between your hero Harper's position and mine? Here's a clue, nothing means nothing, at all. Yes, his is realistic and yours is pie-in-thes-sky. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.