"the english are waking up!"

[Rocky Road]

Definately heated debate happening.

Lets not lose our cool people.

Soyez calme.

Intégrité va gagner ce débat.

[The_Squid]

So you can split up Canada, but Qubec itself is inviolable. Typical sovereigntist logic, that.

If sovereignty ever happens, the borders will have to be negotiated.... It certainly is not a done deal that the borders would all stay the same. There would be a lot of unknowns.... that would be one...

[Antiochus]

The French Media blames the Anglo Media for the shooting, saying by accurately covering the PQ platform they have instilled fear into Anglos

This is an exaggeration...

One would say that some people with the french media are laying the blame on the anglophone media. By and large, the medias, both french and english, are trying to calm things down.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Antiochus

[Wild Bill]

This is an exaggeration...

One would say that some people with the french media are laying the blame on the anglophone media. By and large, the medias, both french and english, are trying to calm things down.

Hmmm...an "exaggeration", you say? That implies there IS something at the root of it!

[jacee]

Hmmm...an "exaggeration", you say? That implies there IS something at the root of it!

Still trying to instigate trouble and prejudice I see.

What, no dog to kick? No kids to steal candy from?

No valid information or opinion on anything real?

No just legions of Wild bill straw men lying disarranged.

[Antiochus]

Hmmm...an "exaggeration", you say? That implies there IS something at the root of it!

Well, there are certain persons that work within the media that have made the argument that the coverage of the campaign within parts of the English-canadian media dealt in fear-mongering, and to an extent, this is not entirely wrong. One could make an argument that such a coverage would create a political climate where such acts are more plausible; though this is an argument that has no value if you do not take several other factors into account, considering that this cannot be the single source of tensions that could have lead to such a tragic act.

Yet, those who actually blame such media coverage for the murder are even fewer and most of the medias right now seem to adhere to the idea that the shooter was suffering from some sort of mental illness.

This is why I claimed that saying that the "French Media" blamed the "English Media" is an exaggeration. The phenomenon certainly exists within the media and there is a valid point to be made that the demonizing of a political party can foster an environment where attacks against that party would be more common. But as I said, to say that the blame should lay at the feet of something as vague and diverse as the "English Media" is quite absurd.

[gunrutz]

Just an fyi for some of you who seem to caught up in what this piece of paper says or what that map shows, there are no borders. Quebec is a piece of land, it can be altered its exterior borders and those within, if Montreal decided to separate why couldn't it? You think because Quebec said no that it couldn't happen? It's only the will of the people that allows these borders to exist at all, the will of the people can surely change them. Poor Quebec, so hard done by, how long do you think it would be before a sovreign Quebec decided that labrador was part of it's territory? It's only lines on maps and words or paper people, means nothing, if you can leave us parts of you can leave too, or would the new Quebec state try to force them to stay, i think that would be pretty likely.

Edited September 7, 2012 by gunrutz

[Antiochus]

Just an fyi for some of you who seem to caught up in what this piece of paper says or what that map shows, there are no borders. Quebec is a piece of land, it can be altered its exterior borders and those within, if Montreal decided to speerate why couldn't it? You think because Quebec said no that it couldn't happen? It's only the will of the people that allows these borders to exist at all, the will of the people can surely change them. Poor Quebec, so hard done by, how long do you think it would be before a sovreign Quebec decided that labrador was part of it's territory? It's only lines on maps and words or paper people, means nothing, if you can leave us parts of you can leave too, or would the new Quebec state try to force them to stay, it think that would be pretty likely.

You are playing a dangerous game. Those pieces of papers are not something to be taken lightly. Within our system, the sovereignty lies in the hands of the parliament, which is why the referendum mostly had a consultative role that would simply have given the provincial government the popular mandate to take a decision. As there are no-such entities that have such sovereignty within the provinces (municipalities have no independent powers that provinces can't legally take back), what you describe here is technically untrue.

[jbg]

Quebec is a piece of land, it can be altered its exterior borders and those within, if Montreal decided to separate why couldn't it? You think because Quebec said no that it couldn't happen?

I forget, was it Chretien, or Dion, who said "if Canada's divisible, Quebec is divisible?

[cybercoma]

How about making Anglos so unwelcome they want to leave--- the PQs are doing just that & have been doing it for many years.

Kind of like you try to do with Muslims and the First Nations?

[jbg]

Kind of like you try to do with Muslims and the First Nations?

Is the West insisting on conformity to Western values somehow genocidal?

[Smallc]

Is the West insisting on conformity to Western values somehow genocidal?

Irony much?

[Antiochus]

Is the West insisting on conformity to Western values somehow genocidal?

Well, if done at the point of a sword, I believe you just described the Spanish inquisition...

So, yes, it can be...

[CANADIEN]

Ok so let me be short and to the point, 1760 Quebec falls to the British they did not try to assimilate Quebec, individuals might have presented ill though out plans but they did not full heartedly try to do so otherwise We wouldn't be having this discussion... just ask the Acadians.

Let's get to the point indeed. The Act of Union was a blatant attempt, and not an individual initiative, at assimilating Québec. It failed because the intended targets just plain said non. As for full-hearted attempts at assimilating French-speaking Canadians ourside Québec... three generations of Franco-Manitobains had no illusion at how full-hearted the attempts at erasing their identity was.

As for asking the Acadiens... Indeed go ask them they'll tell you how they survived even being expelled from their land.

Edited September 8, 2012 by CANADIEN

[TheNewTeddy]

Let,sw get to the poit indeed. The Act of Union was a blatant attempt, and not an idnividual, at assimilating quebec. It failed because the intended targets just plain said non. As for full-hearted attempts at assimilating French-speaking Canadians ourside Québec... three generations of Franco-Manitobains and no illusion at how full-hearted the attempts at erasing their identity was.

As for asking the Acadiens... Indeed go ask them they'll tell you how they survived even being expelled from their land.

We even added to the culture of other lands like Louisiana!

[CANADIEN]

You survived by the grace and good will of the folks who conquered you. You should be more grateful.

The gratitude speech. always so heart-warming to any French-speaking Canadian, beginning with the Acadiens...

What I especially love is that 9 times (and more) out of 10 the speech comes just before, just after or right in a middle of comments that give the reader the distinct impression that gratitude means "shut up and do it in English".

Will you enlighten us in such a fashion? Just asking.

Edited September 8, 2012 by CANADIEN

[jbg]

Ok so let me be short and to the point, 1760 Quebec falls to the British they did not try to assimilate Quebec, individuals might have presented ill though out plans but they did not full heartedly try to do so otherwise We wouldn't be having this discussion... just ask the Acadians.

Exactly. I thought this was all settled at the Plains of Abraham. Precisely at place of the running track that's now there.

Edited September 8, 2012 by jbg

[TheNewTeddy]

You'll have a hard time finding an Acadian who does not know English.

You might claim to find some in far north NB but these Acadians tend to have Quebecois last names strangely enough.

Acadians have managed to learn and use English when it benefits them, and yet, live in French. Acadian culture is stronger now than it was 100 years ago, despite all the English.

[Antiochus]

You'll have a hard time finding an Acadian who does not know English.

You might claim to find some in far north NB but these Acadians tend to have Quebecois last names strangely enough.

Acadians have managed to learn and use English when it benefits them, and yet, live in French. Acadian culture is stronger now than it was 100 years ago, despite all the English.

And Quebec has a higher rate of bilingualism than most of Canada. I think there is a fine line between assimilation and integration by the way and assimilation was the point since the Act of Union, changing only in the second half of the 20th century.

[CANADIEN]

And Quebec has a higher rate of bilingualism than most of Canada. I think there is a fine line between assimilation and integration by the way and assimilation was the point since the Act of Union, changing only in the second half of the 20th century.

The point is not, and has never been, whether or not French-speaking Canadians should be able to speak English.

[Handsome Rob]

I'm curious Benz, what exactly you find unacceptable about today's Quebec-Canada relationship. Could you post that in concise form?

[Wild Bill]

The point is not, and has never been, whether or not French-speaking Canadians should be able to speak English.

Well, what is the point? I have been hearing these complaints for a long time and I truly don't understand the logic behind it. It always sounds as if somehow the Anglo majority went out of its way to screw the Francophones.

I don't see how historically anything of the sort happened! If you are a small linguistic minority, there's really not much more the majority can do except pass laws to make sure you are entitled to practice your language.

What else can be done? Guarantee a job? If all the jobs are at places that speak a different language how could any government expect businesses to spend the money and make the effort to accomodate just a few employees? How could they be expected to make companies promote them to better paying higher positions?

If you live in a town with 100,000 Anglos and 100 Francophones, is it reasonable to expect the corner variety store to offer service en francais? Hell, I've gone into variety stores where the person behind the counter doesn't understand English OR French! They spoke a totally unfamiliar language!

If you are in a small minority the world is going to go as it will. There is no malice involved, just circumstances.

I will grant that by today's standards some acts of long ago were wrong. What else is new? You can't change history and it is not right to pay descendants for injustices towards their ancestors. All you can do is try to ensure that all people TODAY are treated equally!

I do not understand why I should feel guilty for things my great grandfather might have done, or what other citizens down the street have done just because we are both of the same race.

I have enough trouble dealing with my OWN sins, thank you!

[cybercoma]

If you are in a small minority the world is going to go as it will. There is no malice involved, just circumstances.

Political borders everywhere change. Within the political border of Québec, French is a large majority. However, they are a minority within the larger political border of Canada. As the province have always been semi-autonomous (Canada started as a confederacy of political holdings after all), it is not outlandish for francophones to see themselves as a majority within their nation of Québec with Canada being the aggressor by not allowing them self-realization of independence. Québec culturally, linguistically, and politically have been and probably always will be significantly different than the rest of Canada. Even political pundits that disagree with the sovereigntists recognize that. What I'm trying to say is that within their province, which very well could be a nation on its own, francophones and their culture is not the minority.

[g_bambino]

{I]t is not outlandish for francophones to see themselves as a majority within their nation of Québec with Canada being the aggressor by not allowing them self-realization of independence.

There may well be people who actually think that. But, it begs the question: Why? What's in place that keeps Quebec nationalists from carving a piece out of Canada to form their own independent ethinc enclave, other than, so far, the majority of their fellow Quebec citizens? There's no law preventing it; just democratic will.

[ed.: sp]

Edited September 8, 2012 by g_bambino

[Benz]

To be an "us" with a homeland, you need to be an ethnic group...

Quebecois are not an Ethnic Group...

Deciding someone is "Nous" and someone else is "Elles" is racism...

Fail!!

You have just made the demonstration that you are racist.

Québécois is not an ethnic group, it's a cultural group not base on the genetic. Anyone who adopts the culture becomes part of it. Whether you are born in Saguenay or Tombouctou, you can be a Québécois.

By your definition, only 80% of people living in Canada are Canadians. All new citizens cannot by any circumstances be canadians.

Look at yourself. You just do projections.

He doesn't want to believe this, I guess. Who would? And I'm sure he doesn't think of himself as a racist. Still, that doesn't change the fact that the separatiste philosophy looks that way to Canadians outside of Quebec.

I can see that. However, you and only you think that way. Not the rest of the world. The most hilarious part is, you are exactly how you describ us.

To TROC, it will be a bit like negotiating with the KKK.

Go tell that to the rest of the world, I want to see their reaction.