"the english are waking up!"

[jbg]

If the British wouldn't have raised the taxes so high and create a revolt in the USA, then and only then they could have kick the french out of Québec. after few years. From the moment the US revolution took place, the British needed the french big time.

Not quite.

It was more that with the loss of cannon fodder soldiers recruited from the 13 colonies, Britain didn't have the manpower to keep fighting. Even though the first shots of the American Revolutionary Was were not fired until 1774 it was obvious from around 1765 on that the British really couldn't rely on the 13 colonies.

[jbg]

We must never forget that above our cultural differences, we are all humans and equal to the face of mother nature (or god if it is your beleif). The politic is not above that.

Thanks.

[Signals.Cpl]

Not quite.

It was more that with the loss of cannon fodder soldiers recruited from the 13 colonies, Britain didn't have the manpower to keep fighting. Even though the first shots of the American Revolutionary Was were not fired until 1774 it was obvious from around 1765 on that the British really couldn't rely on the 13 colonies.

But maintaining unnecessarily large garrison which had to be maintained at the expense of the 13 colonies also helped quicken the downward spiral of relations.

[jbg]

But maintaining unnecessarily large garrison which had to be maintained at the expense of the 13 colonies also helped quicken the downward spiral of relations.

Honestly it was a chicken and egg situation, from what I can tell. Relations went into the crapper almost immediately after the end of the Seven Years War. The British perhaps should have considered that such well-trained British officers as George Washington could end up in rebellion. The British trained the best enemies that money could buy.

[Signals.Cpl]

Honestly it was a chicken and egg situation, from what I can tell. Relations went into the crapper almost immediately after the end of the Seven Years War. The British perhaps should have considered that such well-trained British officers as George Washington could end up in rebellion. The British trained the best enemies that money could buy.

From what I have read, it did not go down hill that fast. It seems that it went sour over the next 15 years as the 13 Colonies were not interested in independence until sometime after the war had started. Although in 1765 the situation was far from good, they were still loyal to the crown.

[jbg]

From what I have read, it did not go down hill that fast. It seems that it went sour over the next 15 years as the 13 Colonies were not interested in independence until sometime after the war had started. Although in 1765 the situation was far from good, they were still loyal to the crown.

First of all, 15 years from the end of the Seven Years War was 1778 when the Revolutionary War was in full swing and independence declared. The first of the Stamp Taxes was scheduled to go into effect in November 1765. According to a book I read that was predominately about the history of U.S. 1, called The King's Best Highway much anti-British sentiment already existed. The "loyalty" existed in the same sense that Virginia was "loyal" to the Union between Lincoln's inauguration and April 19, 1861, when it formally seceded.

In fact, the colonies were a tinderbox from that time on. Remember, the British had trained our fighters.

[Signals.Cpl]

First of all, 15 years from the end of the Seven Years War was 1778 when the Revolutionary War was in full swing and independence declared. The first of the Stamp Taxes was scheduled to go into effect in November 1765. According to a book I read that was predominately about the history of U.S. 1, called The King's Best Highway much anti-British sentiment already existed. The "loyalty" existed in the same sense that Virginia was "loyal" to the Union between Lincoln's inauguration and April 19, 1861, when it formally seceded.

In fact, the colonies were a tinderbox from that time on. Remember, the British had trained our fighters.

For all intents and purposes the war ended in 1760, between 1760 and 1763 the war was concentrated outside of the continent of North America. Until well in to the war of independence the 13 Colonies were still hoping for the British to agree and give them representation in London as well as their other demands. Independence came about as a result of stupid British decisions that forced the hand of the colonies, the anger at the British started in 1760 first with the treatment of the French , then in 1763 when the proclamation was made by King George so it was by no means a happy relationship but up until the first shot was fired they were unhappy but loyal as they wanted to remain as part of the British Empire.

[Benz]

[g_bambino]

You don't get a damn thing. It gives a great advantage for the students having parents with money at the expense of those who don't.

I get that the subject has zilch to do with forced federal intrusion in provincial affairs.

[jbg]

For all intents and purposes the war ended in 1760, between 1760 and 1763 the war was concentrated outside of the continent of North America. Until well in to the war of independence the 13 Colonies were still hoping for the British to agree and give them representation in London as well as their other demands. Independence came about as a result of stupid British decisions that forced the hand of the colonies, the anger at the British started in 1760 first with the treatment of the French , then in 1763 when the proclamation was made by King George so it was by no means a happy relationship but up until the first shot was fired they were unhappy but loyal as they wanted to remain as part of the British Empire.

What you're saying was largely true in New York and in some of the Southern colonies. New England and Pennsylvania were tinderboxes almost as soon as the Seven Years War ended. Even the physical safety of British interests was questionable at times.

I believe that most rebellious colonists understood that getting representation would not really help matters. We would have faced the same problems in London as Alberta faces in Ottawa (though less so with a transplanted Albertan PM).

[Army Guy]

Whatever. You or I are not going to solve this problem here on this board, Benz. I recognize that Quebec will do whatever it wants. I just question the problems that Quebec will have to face that go along with separation. Frankly, from your posts I got the impression you think it will all be so easy and painless. I don't believe that for a minute. I think you are thinking only with your heart and are ignoring the real world difficulties involved.

1) You underestimate the problems the Québécois are having in the federal system.

2) alot of new independent countries got their independence not painfully.

I don't think a minute that english Canada will use military forces against us and I know we won't do anything that would justify one to take military actions too.

This is a scary topic, atleast for myself who has seen first hand separation of nations , and what it cost them. And while most Canadians will think that this will not happen in Canada because we are beyond that, well i hope they are right, but history shows us something very different.

Benz you quote above you don't think Main line canada will not use military forces again'st Quebec your sadly mistaken, in fact during the last refurendum Creitien had planed such a use if things did not go to plan. In fact he mentions it in his book.

He mentions his plan about what was being done about French Canadian military forces, how most of the important assets such as F-18's were sent south into the states, how some ground forces were also sent south into the states on a major exericise, As they're was a question to they're loyality to Canada, Quebec separatists had already asked french Canadian military members about crossing over and enough had said yes to cause concern, concern enough to move major military assets out of Quebec.

Mr Crietien had also place serveral english speaking units on standby if required, for what reason he does not say, but i'm sure it was not to hand out blankets and teddy bears.

So if it had been done by a French Canadian Prime minister, what exactly do you think mr harpers plans would be.

What scares me the most is the thought of Canadian engaging fellow Canadians, over the years french and english soldiers have developed a close bond, many having developed life long freindships.

But both sides knows what at stake here, on one side the creation of the french dream, starting a new nation under complete control of French citizens. On the other the survival of English Canada. What i mean with that is these pionts.

1. What are going to be Quebecs new borders, this question has been asked by alot of posters here.,,,and how are they going to be administered, Martimes provinces have alot of thier goods shipped through quebec.

2. How is this going to effect the rest of Canada, will it spur other separations.

3. How does this effect the rest of Canada in regards to our dollar, will it be as strong as it is now, it's already been mentioned Quebec represents 25% of our GDP, that has got to have some effect on our dollar. just the fact that talks about Quebec separation has an effect. this could mean billions upon billions of dollars to both sides. and money makes the world go round.

4. With the loss of our dollar value in the world market, who does this effect our trade, because of the uncertainity in our country it has to have an effect. and if so less money means less programs....and i'm sure at this time cutting back the military may not be an option....So what suffers and are Canadians ready to accept that.

5. Industry and the nations power people have to much to loss, those that call the shots in Canada are not just going to let this all happen with out some kind of reaction....

6. Alot is at stake and as much as we all like to down size federal government , have the provinces have more say, it all comes at a price, and are we ready to pay that. Maybe i'm reading to much into this, but i've been in the military for over 30 years and have not seen very many separations go well, civil war is a norm...

Nothing has been agreed to yet, such as borders, the use of Canadian dollar, first nations, inuit peoples, etc etc and you say they are not a federal problem, but they are.

[Benz]

This is a scary topic, atleast for myself who has seen first hand separation of nations , and what it cost them. And while most Canadians will think that this will not happen in Canada because we are beyond that, well i hope they are right, but history shows us something very different.

Benz you quote above you don't think Main line canada will not use military forces again'st Quebec your sadly mistaken, in fact during the last refurendum Creitien had planed such a use if things did not go to plan. In fact he mentions it in his book.

I am aware of all that. That deployment was just a bluff. The Québécois are not afraid of those scarecrows. Even if there is a serious possibility that can turn out bad, there is no way I will choose to surrender to mediocrity. Being Québécois is not conditionnal.

No one has any advantage to let this skid in bloody outcome. Or perhaps those who would like USA to invade the whole Canada? Otherwise, it's not even close to happen. We all have too much to lose to let that happen... on both sides.

[jacee]

I am aware of all that. That deployment was just a bluff. The Québécois are not afraid of those scarecrows. Even if there is a serious possibility that can turn out bad, there is no way I will choose to surrender to mediocrity. Being Québécois is not conditionnal.

No one has any advantage to let this skid in bloody outcome. Or perhaps those who would like USA to invade the whole Canada? Otherwise, it's not even close to happen. We all have too much to lose to let that happen... on both sides.

If there's going to be a split in Canada, it will be east v west.

I'm tired of and disgusted with ethnic slurs and eastern slurs from the west. I never had anti-western bias and have never encountered it ... it's a one way flow of malice - west to east.

And it's against all of us - Maritimes, Quebec, Ontario.

I don't see Quebec going anywhere alone, but if it's all malice west of Kenora, I'd consider a secure and heavily tariffed border there.

Of course I hope cooler western heads will prevail and western vitriole ceases. I don't think the people of the east deserve it. I think it reflects badly on the people of the west too. I never encountered it living out west, and it still shocks me.

I really don't comprehend those who so vehemently vilify Quebec for wanting to break up Canada, when, if anything, it will be western 'alienation', bad attitude and hurtful actions that will split Canada in half.

[jbg]

I really don't comprehend those who so vehemently vilify Quebec for wanting to break up Canada, when, if anything, it will be western 'alienation', bad attitude and hurtful actions that will split Canada in half.

Well if the West is being systematically milked what do you expect? The current system amounts to two wolves and a sheep voting over dinner.

[Army Guy]

Not much was mentioned to the general public, but it was not a bluff, f-18's did deploy to the US, along with serveral 5 Brig army units also deployed into the states , all so they would be out of the country if something did happen. lets not forget our french naval assets. that part was not a bluff....Crietien also mentions in his book that some of the english ground and air units were placed on standby with specific orders , he does not mention what those orders were but they were not to hand out blankets...

Some of the questions i asked need to be solved before Quebec decides to go it's own way, such as borders, what federal instalations , lands, and equipment will be handed over, or taken back. In any case i'm pretty sure Quebec will not look like Quebec does today.

Even if there is a serious possibility that can turn out bad, there is no way I will choose to surrender to mediocrity. Being Québécois is not conditionnal.

Not sure how far this statement is meant to go. be it your willing to take up arms for your cause, and all that it means. But once you go down this road, it can'nt be taken back. And if your not sure what this means i think you should read about a few of the latest nations trying to break free of their govenment chains, Yugoslavia is a good one, and are you ready for all that to be brought into Canada and Quebec.

No one has any advantage to let this skid in bloody outcome. Or perhaps those who would like USA to invade the whole Canada? Otherwise, it's not even close to happen. We all have too much to lose to let that happen... on both sides.

Your wrong both sides have plenty that they could lose, for instance if a direct land route is not secured through Quebec, how will the maritime provinces be be re supplied. this option alone is enough to have one opened via direct force. there are plenty of others. Don't ever think that our government or industry captains are beyond spilling blood in chasing down the mighty buck...Yes we talk a good game but Canadians are no different than the rest of the outside world.

[eyeball]

If there's going to be a split in Canada, it will be east v west.

Nah, I think the real growing divide in Canada is between right and left.

It should be between the governed and governments but...it is what it is.

Edited September 17, 2012 by eyeball

[bleeding heart]

Well if the West is being systematically milked what do you expect? The current system amounts to two wolves and a sheep voting over dinner.

The West is the most politically powerful region in the country now.

So is your analogy that two sheeps are oppressing the wolf? Or...?????

[g_bambino]

Well if the West is being systematically milked what do you expect?

How is the west being systematically milked?

[PIK]

If there's going to be a split in Canada, it will be east v west.

I'm tired of and disgusted with ethnic slurs and eastern slurs from the west. I never had anti-western bias and have never encountered it ... it's a one way flow of malice - west to east.

And it's against all of us - Maritimes, Quebec, Ontario.I don't see Quebec going anywhere alone, but if it's all malice west of Kenora, I'd consider a secure and heavily tariffed border there.

Of course I hope cooler western heads will prevail and western vitriole ceases. I don't think the people of the east deserve it. I think it reflects badly on the people of the west too. I never encountered it living out west, and it still shocks me.

I really don't comprehend those who so vehemently vilify Quebec for wanting to break up Canada, when, if anything, it will be western 'alienation', bad attitude and hurtful actions that will split Canada in half.

Give us a break, The west has been called every name in the book, by people like you, and you just insulted them right now. The westerners are great people , it is the eastern crybabies (NDP) that is emabrressing.

[jacee]

Well if the West is being systematically milked what do you expect? The current system amounts to two wolves and a sheep voting over dinner.

The east milking the west?

I think Alberta's milked this issue dry.

Alberta? Sheep?

Wolves is sheepskins maybe.

And maybe the east is just sick of Alberta whining while money flows from Ottawa to pay off Harper's backers!

BILLION$ in corporate subsidies, tax cuts, political payoffs, fraudulent use of federal funds to fraudulently promote fraudulent-'ethical' oil?

Made Canada look like a bunch of hillbilly ignoramouses ... thanks. You paid the price in US peoole successfully opposing the pipeline: Who the hell wants to do business with a bunch of prejudicednobrains who think they can sell oil by fraudulently calling it 'ethical' and disparaging other cultures? Just an embarrassment.

WHO'S MILKING WHO?

If Alberta doesn't like Canada, let Alberta convince the rest of the west to separate.

Enough pandering, mollycoddling and PAYOFFS to Alberta.

Alberta can barely balance a budget because government is held hostage by the greedy oil barons.

Alberta can't even educate it's own kids to get jobs in the province. They're dropping out, collecting welfare while the oil industry whines to Ottawa (ie us) for immigrants, relocation and training

money FROM US!

GROW UP!

If Alberta wants to squander it's good fortune and the wellbeing of its people to feed profits to the wealthy and install puppets in Ottawa ... don't expect sympathy from us!

And don't come looking for handouts when the gravy train runs dry.

We'll be too busy trying to undo the environmental damage from oil sands emissions.

When Alberta pees in the pool, we ALL pay for the damage.

"Milking Alberta" my as*!

How bout Alberta destroying the environment we ALL live in. Is Alberta going to pay its own way or milk the rest of us?

[PIK]

The east milking the west?

I think Alberta's milked this issue dry.

Alberta? Sheep?

Wolves is sheepskins maybe.

And maybe the east is just sick of Alberta whining while money flows from Ottawa to pay off Harper's backers!

BILLION$ in corporate subsidies, tax cuts, political payoffs, fraudulent use of federal funds to fraudulently promote fraudulent-'ethical' oil?

Made Canada look like a bunch of hillbilly ignoramouses ... thanks. You paid the price in US peoole successfully opposing the pipeline: Who the hell wants to do business with a bunch of prejudicednobrains who think they can sell oil by fraudulently calling it 'ethical' and disparaging other cultures? Just an embarrassment.

WHO'S MILKING WHO?

If Alberta doesn't like Canada, let Alberta convince the rest of the west to separate.

Enough pandering, mollycoddling and PAYOFFS to Alberta.

Alberta can barely balance a budget because government is held hostage by the greedy oil barons.

Alberta can't even educate it's own kids to get jobs in the province. They're dropping out, collecting welfare while the oil industry whines to Ottawa (ie us) for immigrants, relocation and training

money FROM US!

GROW UP!

If Alberta wants to squander it's good fortune and the wellbeing of its people to feed profits to the wealthy and install puppets in Ottawa ... don't expect sympathy from us!

And don't come looking for handouts when the gravy train runs dry.

We'll be too busy trying to undo the environmental damage from oil sands emissions.

When Alberta pees in the pool, we ALL pay for the damage.

"Milking Alberta" my as*!

How bout Alberta destroying the environment we ALL live in. Is Alberta going to pay its own way or milk the rest of us?

Only people that don't understand how things work, hate alberta, or lazy ass people that blame everyone but themselves for their shitty lives.And the XL pipleine, it will be aproved after the election no matter who wins.

Edited September 17, 2012 by PIK

[Wild Bill]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious, that if Quebec separates parts if not all the rest of Canada may simply petition to join the USA!

The West, not having a new country splitting them in half like we'd see with the Maritimes, might stay Canadian but I can't see Ontario staying in. There will be not only little appetite for buying Quebec dairy and other products but even some antipathy. Dairy, chicken and other staples would be MUCH cheaper if we we Americans! Prices on almost everything would drop.

So would taxes! We would also see better employment. No longer could an American president like Obama hurt our economy by adopting an "America First" policy. We would be Americans! And we would not have only branch plants here on our side of the border. We would have the main headquarters of some of them.

There are a lot of advantages. The geographic problem of dealing with a part of Canada on the other side of Quebec vanishes if we are no longer Canada. Perhaps the Maritime provinces may ask to join America as well. Then they would not have to cross through Quebec at all but could simply take routes more south.

It would eliminate the need for any military action to maintain access through Quebec to New Brunswick and the rest. Also a huge bargaining chip for a sovereign Quebece government in its negotiations with TROC. There would be a thunderous flapping of Quebec's sails as the wind spilled out of them.

If you think about it, trading Quebec for Uncle Sam might be a great idea! After all, if Canada has already been destroyed by the Pequistes the idea of being Canadian becomes mere nostalgia anyway.

Not sure where that would leave Quebec as far as her own economy and fortunes but that would be their problem, not ours. At that point, why should we give a damn? Quebec has a right to her own path but along with such a right comes the necessity for accepting any and all consequences. Lord knows we Ontarioans do enough cross border shopping to avoid the sky high pricing of Quebec foodstuffs under supply management programs. We would no longer have to spend hours in traffic jams at the Peace Bridge.

The CFL would likely die but so it goes. As for hockey, it has been integrated for years already. We would still get to watch the Habs beat the Leafs if we were American, as we have done for decades now!

[g_bambino]

{I]f Quebec separates parts if not all the rest of Canada may simply petition to join the USA!

Highly unlikely.

[ed.: fix]

Edited September 17, 2012 by g_bambino

[bleeding heart]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious, that if Quebec separates parts if not all the rest of Canada may simply petition to join the USA!

The West, not having a new country splitting them in half like we'd see with the Maritimes, might stay Canadian but I can't see Ontario staying in. There will be not only little appetite for buying Quebec dairy and other products but even some antipathy. Dairy, chicken and other staples would be MUCH cheaper if we we Americans! Prices on almost everything would drop.

So would taxes! We would also see better employment. No longer could an American president like Obama hurt our economy by adopting an "America First" policy. We would be Americans! And we would not have only branch plants here on our side of the border. We would have the main headquarters of some of them.

There are a lot of advantages. The geographic problem of dealing with a part of Canada on the other side of Quebec vanishes if we are no longer Canada. Perhaps the Maritime provinces may ask to join America as well. Then they would not have to cross through Quebec at all but could simply take routes more south.

It would eliminate the need for any military action to maintain access through Quebec to New Brunswick and the rest. Also a huge bargaining chip for a sovereign Quebece government in its negotiations with TROC. There would be a thunderous flapping of Quebec's sails as the wind spilled out of them.

If you think about it, trading Quebec for Uncle Sam might be a great idea! After all, if Canada has already been destroyed by the Pequistes the idea of being Canadian becomes mere nostalgia anyway.

Not sure where that would leave Quebec as far as her own economy and fortunes but that would be their problem, not ours. At that point, why should we give a damn? Quebec has a right to her own path but along with such a right comes the necessity for accepting any and all consequences. Lord knows we Ontarioans do enough cross border shopping to avoid the sky high pricing of Quebec foodstuffs under supply management programs. We would no longer have to spend hours in traffic jams at the Peace Bridge.

The CFL would likely die but so it goes. As for hockey, it has been integrated for years already. We would still get to watch the Habs beat the Leafs if we were American, as we have done for decades now!

You think the loss of the CFL is the only potential downside?

And you think the majority of Canadians would accept such a proposal even for a second?

Carry on, then.

Edited September 17, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Wild Bill]

Highly unlikely.

[ed.: fix]

Well, thanks for your in-depth rebuttal!

I learned a lot from it!