wyly Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 for reasons unknown I've noticed a definite decline in the number of bees visiting my bee friendly garden...as well as a decline in butterflies, I've only seen two the entire summer...and a definite decline in small bird numbers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 but there is no way you or anyone else can claim insecticides don't have an effect on bees, it's just not plausible... Is there an effect on bees, most likely, is it the main cause of decline, no one knows. Does it matter to crop yields, no. It's a choose your poison, the bees or 6 billion people and your standard of living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 for reasons unknown I've noticed a definite decline in the number of bees visiting my bee friendly garden...as well as a decline in butterflies, I've only seen two the entire summer...and a definite decline in small bird numbers... Live out in the sticks with pesticide filled fields, no noticeable change in birds, bees, or other critters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Is there an effect on bees, most likely, is it the main cause of decline, no one knows. Many scientists think they know and are trying to tell us. Are we really listening? Does it matter to crop yields, no. I thought you were a farmer? It's a choose your poison, the bees or 6 billion people and your standard of living. Without bees, worldwide crops that depend on bees will collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Live out in the sticks with pesticide filled fields, no noticeable change in birds, bees, or other critters. With the amount of pesticides people use within the city for their gardens (food or pretty plants) you can bet that will have an effect on bees and birds ect. Within the city I have noticed a decline as well. I have no way to confirm if that really is the case, but it seems rare that I hear birds within the city and do take notice when I hear them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 What's with your obsession with Mexico? You present a false choice. I enjoy non-organic fruits and vegetables grown in Ontario. Don't you mean "Mexico Derangement Syndrome?" You guys are anti-science. "Complete nonsense." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 It's a choose your poison, the bees or 6 billion people and your standard of living. False choice; epic fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Many scientists think they know and are trying to tell us. Are we really listening? I thought you were a farmer? Without bees, worldwide crops that depend on bees will collapse. Many scientists also developed the resources to allow us to grow huge crops. I am, yields are rising yet bees are dropping, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 False choice; epic fail. No it's not a false choice, the green revolution answered a similar question in the 1960s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 False choice; epic fail. exactly. Silly rhetoric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 No it's not a false choice, the green revolution answered a similar question in the 1960s. I don't know what you're talking about, but yeah, it's a false choice. If I suggest organic produce is better for health and the environment, it does not logically follow that I want to see pesticides stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 I don't know what you're talking about, but yeah, it's a false choice. If I suggest organic produce is better for health and the environment, it does not logically follow that I want to see pesticides stopped. Not for you necessarily, however there are some... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Not for you necessarily, however there are some... Okay: who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Okay: who? Excellent question. Who in this thread has argued for stopping all pesticides? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Excellent question. Who in this thread has argued for stopping all pesticides? Outstanding, so we are in agreement that pesticides shouldn't be stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Outstanding, so we are in agreement that pesticides shouldn't be stopped. I never said that either. I have stated why I choose organic for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Outstanding, so we are in agreement that pesticides shouldn't be stopped. Well, apparently you think somebody out there says they should be. Who, though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 I never said that either. I have stated why I choose organic for myself. I have no problem with people who choose organic. The market exists, and some producers fill it. My issue exists with greenpeace types who suggest I change my production methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 I have no problem with people who choose organic. The market exists, and some producers fill it. My issue exists with greenpeace types who suggest I change my production methods. Again: who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Again: who? I'll call myself out on that one, it's most likely me anyways. But I guess it's not so much pesticides overall (which still is a concern) but the types of pesticides that are commonly used. Remember DDT ??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT First synthesized in 1874, DDT's insecticidal properties were not discovered until 1939, and it was used with great success in the second half of World War II to control malaria and typhus among civilians and troops. The Swiss chemist Paul Hermann Müller was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1948 "for his discovery of the high efficiency of DDT as a contact poison against several arthropods."[3] After the war, DDT was made available for use as an agricultural insecticide, and soon its production and use skyrocketed.[4]In 1962, Silent Spring by American biologist Rachel Carson was published. The book catalogued the environmental impacts of the indiscriminate spraying of DDT in the US and questioned the logic of releasing large amounts of chemicals into the environment without fully understanding their effects on ecology or human health. The book suggested that DDT and other pesticides may cause cancer and that their agricultural use was a threat to wildlife, particularly birds. Its publication was one of the signature events in the birth of the environmental movement, and resulted in a large public outcry that eventually led to DDT being banned in the US in 1972.[5] DDT was subsequently banned for agricultural use worldwide under the Stockholm Convention, but its limited use in disease vector control continues to this day and remains controversial.[6][7] How long before we understand the impact of the current set of pesticides we are using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 How long before we understand the impact of the current set of pesticides we are using? Exactly. The pros and cons need to be evaluated, including the long term effects, in a scientific manner by non-partisan scientists and pesticide use policy should be formed from that. Currently, pesticide use regulations are very lax and is certainly harming the environment/ecosystem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Exactly. The pros and cons need to be evaluated, including the long term effects, in a scientific manner by non-partisan scientists and pesticide use policy should be formed from that. Currently, pesticide use regulations are very lax and is certainly harming the environment/ecosystem. And the companies that put out these chemicals have deep pockets with expensive lawyers and lobbyists to entice corrupt politicians into allowing them to do what they do. They also have a vested interest in telling people that organic is not the way to go. It would affect their bottom line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) edit: covered Edited September 5, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) But you wash that stuff off. Much of the produce you pick up at the grocery store is being sprayed with water while sitting there. What does pesticide taste like anyway? This study indicates that even if there are pesticides on your food is fall within safety regulations. "Wash the stuff off"? You spray pesticides on a plant during its life, I'm thinking it's very likely its not just going to stay on the surface of the skin for most fruits/veggies. You spray/rub a chemical on your skin (ie: sunscreen), it will be absorbed into the skin and into your body. I'd assume similar with many plants, where the pesticide will absorb into the fruit/veggie and you will ingest it. I'm also assuming logically that pesticides will also get into the soil and be absorbed by the plant roots. If I'm wrong then correct me dear science. Some organic foods can be misleading and not as "organic" as one thinks. But wanting organic food isn't snobbery. Not wanting chemicals on/in your food is not snobbery, nor is not wanting entrails and fecal matter & antibiotics fed to the animals you eat. Also, I don't trust food safety regulations, these agri-business super corps. have their bank accounts stroking political offices all the way up the ladder so who knows what's given a blind eye. Faith in safety regs also assumes science is perfectly knowledgeably & knows exactly what won't harm us. If most people knew exactly what happened to get their supermarket food to their dinner tables they wouldn't eat any of it. Tens of thousands of years of human evolution didn't include all this crap in our food, so how can this be good for us? Edited September 5, 2012 by Moonlight Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 "Wash the stuff off"? You spray pesticides on a plant during its life, I'm thinking it's very likely its not just going to stay on the surface of the skin for most fruits/veggies. You spray/rub a chemical on your skin (ie: sunscreen), it will be absorbed into the skin and into your body. I'd assume similar with many plants, where the pesticide will absorb into the fruit/veggie and you will ingest it. I'm also assuming logically that pesticides will also get into the soil and be absorbed by the plant roots. If I'm wrong then correct me dear science. Some organic foods can be misleading and not as "organic" as one thinks. But wanting organic food isn't snobbery. Not wanting chemicals on/in your food is not snobbery, nor is not wanting entrails and fecal matter & antibiotics fed to the animals you eat. Also, I don't trust food safety regulations, these agri-business super corps. have their bank accounts stroking political offices all the way up the ladder so who knows what's given a blind eye. Faith in safety regs also assumes science is perfectly knowledgeably & knows exactly what won't harm us. If most people knew exactly what happened to get their supermarket food to their dinner tables they wouldn't eat any of it. Tens of thousands of years of human evolution didn't include all this crap in our food, so how can this be good for us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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