Argus Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Funny that for all the massive coverage of the Tories and their allegedly illegal in-out illegal campaign spending this little item went barely remarked upon this week. Yes, in fact, the NDP has been caught accepting illegal campaign donations and spending them on advertising -- much like the Tories had spent illegal money on advertising. The amount was even bigger, too. But the media hasn't exactly trumpeted it to the four winds. The NDP quickly pleaded guilty and admitted wrongdoing, of course. But then, perhaps the Tories simply believed more strongly in their case. NDP repays illegal sponsorship money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Funny that for all the massive coverage of the Tories and their allegedly illegal in-out illegal campaign spending this little item went barely remarked upon this week. Yes, in fact, the NDP has been caught accepting illegal campaign donations and spending them on advertising -- much like the Tories had spent illegal money on advertising. The amount was even bigger, too. But the media hasn't exactly trumpeted it to the four winds. The NDP quickly pleaded guilty and admitted wrongdoing, of course. But then, perhaps the Tories simply believed more strongly in their case. NDP repays illegal sponsorship money The problem wasn't the whole in and out thing, I can see how they might think that is legal. The problem was them fighting Elections Canada when it was quite clear they were in the wrong. Here is not the same thing however the NDP didn't fight. They said "we asked your opinion about this, you told us an answer and we followed it to the letter. Now that you (Elections Canada) have looked at the problem closer you now think we violated the Elections Act (Under your own guidelines BTW) you don't think what we did was legal. No problem we will pay all the money back and will stop this practice in the future." No multi million dollar wastes of tax payers money only to plead guilty anyway. No public fights which hurt the non-partisan rules Election Canada follows quite well. Just a I see we were both wrong a few years ago lets go back and correct the problem. Considering the Election Act as it is has only really been around for 5 years these problems will occur with parties that have run things a certain way. I know why CONSERVATIVES are the only ones jumping on this. It is because the in and out thing was a stupid fiasco and the NDP are doing this the right way. You better try to dirty that apple anyway you can because anyone on the outside looking in see this in a positive light. Edited August 31, 2012 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Funny that for all the massive coverage of the Tories and their allegedly illegal in-out illegal campaign spending this little item went barely remarked upon this week. Yes, in fact, the NDP has been caught accepting illegal campaign donations and spending them on advertising -- much like the Tories had spent illegal money on advertising. The amount was even bigger, too. But the media hasn't exactly trumpeted it to the four winds. The NDP quickly pleaded guilty and admitted wrongdoing, of course. But then, perhaps the Tories simply believed more strongly in their case. NDP repays illegal sponsorship money You clearly don't understand the case. It is not illegal to sell advertising at your conventions. It is illegal to sell it at a price higher than the fair market value. What the NDP paid back was the difference between what Elections Canada considers fair market value and what was actually paid for advertising. The NDP didn't "collect illegal donations" and the NDP didn't spend those donations on advertising like the Tories. Get your facts straight before you feign indignation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 anything to deflect away from the most heinous of offenses committed by the CPC that of subverting the very essence of our democratic process...denying people their most fundamental right, the right to vote and a fair election... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 You clearly don't understand the case. It is not illegal to sell advertising at your conventions. It is illegal to sell it at a price higher than the fair market value. What the NDP paid back was the difference between what Elections Canada considers fair market value and what was actually paid for advertising. The NDP didn't "collect illegal donations" and the NDP didn't spend those donations on advertising like the Tories. Get your facts straight before you feign indignation. You don't understand the fact that this is the biggest case of electorial fraud ever in the history of canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 You don't understand the fact that this is the biggest case of electorial fraud ever in the history of canada. What the In and Out scheme worth more then a Million Dollars? I agree it was but I don't see how you are making a point here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) You don't understand the fact that this is the biggest case of electorial fraud ever in the history of canada. I'll see your $300,000 of electoral fraud and raise you $1,000,000 million dollars for the in-and-out scheme for a total of $1,300,000 in Tory fraud. Edited August 31, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 It's funny to listen to the usual forum suspects now defending campaign fraud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 It's funny to listen to the usual forum suspects now defending campaign fraud! So, you are unable to read basic English? That was never my impression before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 It's funny to listen to the usual forum suspects now defending campaign fraud! Fraud?Do you know what the word means? And why are NDP supporters suspects?? Were we accused of some kind of crime or something! Must be hard being Shady WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrutz Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 You clearly don't understand the case. It is not illegal to sell advertising at your conventions. It is illegal to sell it at a price higher than the fair market value. What the NDP paid back was the difference between what Elections Canada considers fair market value and what was actually paid for advertising. The NDP didn't "collect illegal donations" and the NDP didn't spend those donations on advertising like the Tories. Get your facts straight before you feign indignation. So the NDP clearly hid illegal donations in advertising costs but they weren't illegal donations? Ok then. I suppose they are repaying this for no reason, how good of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Funny that for all the massive coverage of the Tories and their allegedly illegal in-out illegal campaign spending this little item went barely remarked upon this week. huh! "Allegedly illegal in-out"!!! WTF! "Allegedly illegal"... what kind of revisionism are you fronting, hey? Yes, in fact, the NDP has been caught accepting illegal campaign donations and spending them on advertising -- much like the Tories had spent illegal money on advertising. The amount was even bigger, too. But the media hasn't exactly trumpeted it to the four winds. The NDP quickly pleaded guilty and admitted wrongdoing, of course. But then, perhaps the Tories simply believed more strongly in their case. obviously, you haven't a clue as to what actually transpired. Perhaps you could have a go at interpreting the Elections Canada direction/advice that was provided to the NDP, hey? actually... it's in relation to both union and corporate advertising monies received from unions/corporations advertising at the NDP conventions. it is also interesting to realize that in 2003 the NDP sought related guidance from Elections Canada as to whether money obtained through selling advertising would be considered a political contribution. The Elections Canada response: Where a person or entity purchases goods or services from a registered party with the intention of economically benefiting the party, the payment for goods and services will not constitute contributions to the extent that the payment reflects the fair market value of the goods and services purchased. Any amount of the payment above the fair market value will constitute a contribution if the person purchasing the good and service intended to benefit the party. the NDP has stated they believe they were in compliance with the Elections Canada response received... but chose not to pursue the matter through the Courts. More pointedly: the NDP also sought legal opinion and hired a third-party company to assess what fair market value for advertising would be in advance of each of the three policy conventions in question and followed those recommendations. Brad Lavigne, former national director of the NDP, said this shows the party intended to stay within the rules. “We put an emphasis on going to a third-party company to assess market value in order to keep (to) the letter as well as the spirit of the law,” Lavigne said. “We felt that while it wasn’t legally necessary to seek third-party validation for market value, we felt that it would be appropriate and well worth the investment.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 It's funny to listen to the usual forum suspects now defending campaign fraud! Campaign fraud? You know the NDP wasn't charged with fraud, right? It was a EC rules violation, not a criminal fraud case.The Conservatives on the other hand.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 So the NDP clearly hid illegal donations in advertising costs but they weren't illegal donations? Ok then. I suppose they are repaying this for no reason, how good of them. They didn't hide "illegal donations in advertising costs." All of their numbers were appropriately submitted to Elections Canada and when the discrepancy came up, they paid it back immediately. More to the point, they even asked Elections Canada about what they were charging for advertising and EC told them that there was no problem with it until they started investigating everything. So the NDP was also misinformed by Elections Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 So the NDP was also misinformed by Elections Canada. And since Elections Canada is, so I've been informed here by some Conservatives, quite profoundly evil, this matter shouldn't be hard to comprehend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 And since Elections Canada is, so I've been informed here by some Conservatives, quite profoundly evil, this matter shouldn't be hard to comprehend. Don't forget full of appointed Liberals Party members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Hell, Conservatives on this forum think that EC doesn't matter and it's a kangaroo court. That is until they ask NDP to pay back a portion of their ad revenues from their convention. Then they're the saviours of democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewTeddy Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 The NDP was caught recently doing something corrupt with money The Tories were caught a few years ago doing something corrupt with money The Liberals were caught a few years before that doing something corrupt with money Even the Bloc was caught back in 2000-2003 doing something corrupt with money Attacking one of the parties and not the other reeks of hypocrisy. Unless you are a Green I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Campaign fraud? You know the NDP wasn't charged with fraud, right? It was a EC rules violation, not a criminal fraud case. The Conservatives on the other hand.... Still defending blatant election rules violations huh? Stay classy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Still defending blatant election rules violations huh? Stay classy. How am I defending them? They returned the money as soon as they were told they weren't allowed to do it. When they asked before that, they were told it's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westguy Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 You clearly don't understand the case. It is not illegal to sell advertising at your conventions. It is illegal to sell it at a price higher than the fair market value. What the NDP paid back was the difference between what Elections Canada considers fair market value and what was actually paid for advertising. The NDP didn't "collect illegal donations" and the NDP didn't spend those donations on advertising like the Tories. Get your facts straight before you feign indignation. I may be wrong but my understanding was the unions made political contributions from union dues, which is illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 I may be wrong but my understanding was the unions made political contributions from union dues, which is illegal. Not exactly. The issue is the NDP lied about the fair market value of the sponsorship purchased by these unions. The profit was then considered a contribution, which is illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) I may be wrong but my understanding was the unions made political contributions from union dues, which is illegal. Cool its not another spam about viagara... As I understand it from what I have read . 2003 Election Rules changed. NDP asks for clarification/guidance from EC regarding Sponsorship/adverstising etc. Are told that adverstising is acceptable as long as it priced at fair market values. IE what would an add for a brochure that went to 10,000 people at a conference be worth, or a large banner that was going to be seen in the arena, stadium and or on TV. NDP receives Corporate and Union advertising at their conventions 2006 Conservatives challenge that the adverstising is tantamount to corportate and Union donations. All convention revenues from 2006 to 2011 data is sent to EC. 3rd Pariies were hired prior to verify that adds were "fair Market" 2012 EC rules in favour of conservatives and NDP return adverstising monies from Union and corporations for the previous conventions back to 2006. NDP had the right to challenge (Who knows outcome could be the same, the change in ruling as far as I know is that instead of fair market is a complete ban), but accepted the decision and sent the monies back. So, obviously if you are against the NDP you get to have fun with this, and why not. The biggest difference is the openeness of the situation vs the In and Out scheme was trying to hide this from EC, while sticking it to the taxpayers. One party returned the monies. The other party was convicted. Edited September 1, 2012 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) Not exactly. The issue is the NDP lied about the fair market value of the sponsorship purchased by these unions. The profit was then considered a contribution, which is illegal. This is where i am confused in what I have read. My original understanding was what you have just said. However, I believe that the challenge was that the monies for adverstising regardless if fair market or not, are now considered a donation (thus illegal). I say this because I read it somewhere (and of course I can't find it now) regarding the Conservative challenge. I would prefer if the rules are interpreted the way you have described. Fair Market. Vs a Ban on Corporate and Union advertising at events.... If you read below, the Conservatives complaint was regarding the Union Logo Prescence, so I believe its beyond advertising and fair market value, I believe its a complete "ban". or as Naomi Klien says NO LOGO. ------------------------- The Conservative party had filed a complaint with Elections Canada about union logos appearing at NDP events last year after a Montreal newspaper reported that unions spent at least $85,000 at the party’s June 2011 convention in Vancouver. Earlier this summer, Elections Canada announced that the NDP would have to pay back the money it had received from unions who sponsored some events, but a full figure was never revealed. The full amount reported by the Toronto Star — more than $340,000 —includes $40,860 at the 2006 convention in Quebec City, $102,500 from the 2009 convention in Halifax and $201,108 at the Vancouver convention last year. ------------------------------------ Read more: http://www.canada.com/business/forced+repay+donations/7147640/story.html#ixzz25EIM38UV PS I couold ban viagara right now lol Edited September 1, 2012 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilter Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 [quote name='Argus' Yes, in fact, the NDP has been caught accepting illegal campaign donations and spending them on advertising OK--- right there I know you are wrong because, if I remember correctly, the main guy at the head of that party was Jack Layton and as we all know Jack would never do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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