MiddleClassCentrist Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 those of us who have spent dcecades working solely in the private sector already are fully aware that things such as "merit" and "fairness" and "practicality" are religious beliefs, not factual observations. Only ideologues believe otherwise. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
bleeding heart Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 Only ideologues believe otherwise. Yes, well, some folks really believe that free market theory trumps reality every time. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Shady Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 I agree with you wholeheartedly. Private entities can waste money...and public entities should never do so. All I was saying is the fact that we all agree that private entities waste money is the beginning of the undermining of the (often-stated) beleif that the private sector is always inherently practical, always merit-based...which of course brings into stark relief all sorts of questions about wages, corporate behaviour, and on and on. Of course, those of us who have spent dcecades working solely in the private sector already are fully aware that things such as "merit" and "fairness" and "practicality" are religious beliefs, not factual observations. Nonsense. In the private sector, merit trumps almost everything else. It's bad business to promote and/or hire people that are terrible at their job. Quote
bleeding heart Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 Nonsense. In the private sector, merit trumps almost everything else. It's bad business to promote and/or hire people that are terrible at their job. They seem to more or less get by. Shady, haven't you worked in the Private sector? I'm assuming you have. Are you going to tell me you haven't seen tons of bad decisions--as common as breathing--about both good and bad employees? Like...continually? Human beings run things, not some magical "invisible hand." It's always human beings. They can't be expected to make the best decisions about everything even half the time, I'd wager. The private sector is beset by nearly identical "human resource" problems as is the public sector. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
gunrutz Posted August 1, 2012 Report Posted August 1, 2012 I have nothing against teachers, it is an important responsibility, however, there are people who have much more responsibility, who in fact have peoples lives in their hands who aren't paid more or treated as well as teachers, teachers are doing just fine thanks. No btw, im not jealous of teachers, I already make a lot more than them. Though the summer mostly off would be nice. Quote
CPCFTW Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) They seem to more or less get by. Shady, haven't you worked in the Private sector? I'm assuming you have. Are you going to tell me you haven't seen tons of bad decisions--as common as breathing--about both good and bad employees? Like...continually? Human beings run things, not some magical "invisible hand." It's always human beings. They can't be expected to make the best decisions about everything even half the time, I'd wager. The private sector is beset by nearly identical "human resource" problems as is the public sector. The private sector minimizes these issues by design. If you run a business making widgets and are hiring based on nepotism or handing out sweetheart consulting contracts, then another company making widgets will underprice you and take your market share (in a competitive market). I'm not saying these issues plagued RIM, but the downfall of RIM is an example of how a company that loses its competitive edge can quite suddenly be "corrected" by the "invisible hand" in the private sector. Air Canada is another example. In the public sector, there's simply no corrective mechanism. If you are hiring based on nepotism or handing out sweetheart consulting contracts, it just means your service quality decreases and that you have to get the taxpayer to pony up more money (for example by striking and forcing them pay for daycare and babysitters until they are more amenable to your demands). Edited August 2, 2012 by CPCFTW Quote
CPCFTW Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) if the Liberals don't give teachers what we deserve then there will be a strike. we are tired of governments who have no clue what we have to go through. mcguinty better quickly realize how much support the teachers in ontario gave him in this last election. thank goodness we have awesome teacher unions in this province looking out for teachers and students. i'm disgusted. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/start-of-ontarios-school-year-in-jeopardy-if-labour-talks-stall/article4449756/ I have one more semester then I will be a public school teacher. You make an ignorant remark so you must be jealous. Public schools are changing. I want to be part of that change and have kids exposed to my views of social justice and environmental issues. So you're not even a teacher yet and you already feel entitled to "what you deserve", and are an expert on the rigours of the teaching profession, particularly "what we have to go through"? The sad thing is that you probably have no idea how ridiculous you sound. /you will live a long life of suckling on the taxpayer's teat, brainwashing our children, and voting NDP. A true Canadian tragedy. Edited August 2, 2012 by CPCFTW Quote
socialist Posted August 2, 2012 Author Report Posted August 2, 2012 So you're not even a teacher yet and you already feel entitled to "what you deserve", and are an expert on the rigours of the teaching profession, particularly "what we have to go through"? The sad thing is that you probably have no idea how ridiculous you sound. /you will live a long life of suckling on the taxpayer's teat, brainwashing our children, and voting NDP. A true Canadian tragedy. True, I will always vote NDP or a party further left because they understand what public education is all about. I became interested inpublic education after reading the communist manifesto, the 10th plank. As for brainwashing children, , that is non sense. Almost all text books nowadays are written by progressives who know what public education really should be. I can and will use my class as a platform. I know many, many public school teachers who do. we often et together to discuss strategies of how to teach kids the truth. parents don't complain so they must agree. too bad you don't have a clue. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Moonlight Graham Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 When you break down unionized vs. non-unionized, students in unionized environments outperform those that come from a non-unionized teaching environment. That's an inconvenient truth for ontario teacher haters. I don't hate ON teachers or the union. Do you have a source for the info? Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Moonlight Graham Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 You don't know anything about bargaining so don't try to pretend to be an expert. How do you know this? I could be the ghost of Jimmy Hoffa for all you know. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 I have nothing against teachers, it is an important responsibility, however, there are people who have much more responsibility, who in fact have peoples lives in their hands who aren't paid more or treated as well as teachers, teachers are doing just fine thanks. No btw, im not jealous of teachers, I already make a lot more than them. Though the summer mostly off would be nice. For example... (just want a job to see what you were getting at for more responsibility) Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 I don't hate ON teachers or the union. Do you have a source for the info? I've read it on multiple occasions. Since I have young lads I've been paying more attention to education issues. Last time I read it was on nationalpost.com in one of their articles talking about McGuinty government's recent bout with teachers. Referencing the "inconvenient truth" that students in unionised environments do better. Quick Google: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/how-states-with-no-teacher-uni.html Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) So you're not even a teacher yet and you already feel entitled to "what you deserve", and are an expert on the rigours of the teaching profession, particularly "what we have to go through"? The sad thing is that you probably have no idea how ridiculous you sound. /you will live a long life of suckling on the taxpayer's teat, brainwashing our children, and voting NDP. A true Canadian tragedy. He doesn't represent all teachers. Teachers have gone 8 years without any issues and they understand the current economic climate (at least the ones I know). The OSSTF union even went to negotiate a wage freeze and McGuinty said "Not enough"/It's not what we want. A union going to negotiate a wage freeze is almost unheard of! Now, ETFO (elementary) is more militant and less rational... it would never do that. The stuff you read in the news is mostly just misinformation, teachers aren't making any "demands". They are just trying to protect what has already been agreed to. Edited August 2, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
punked Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 So you're not even a teacher yet and you already feel entitled to "what you deserve", and are an expert on the rigours of the teaching profession, particularly "what we have to go through"? The sad thing is that you probably have no idea how ridiculous you sound. /you will live a long life of suckling on the taxpayer's teat, brainwashing our children, and voting NDP. A true Canadian tragedy. I don't think Socialist gets it. Even in NDP Nova Scotia the Dexter government has said to the public sector unions "Look right now we are in the red, we have asked the people to pay a little more to get us out and are asking you to take a little less" when the unions came back with "We wont take that" the premier said "there is no more money if we give you this raise then expect to do more work because we wont be able to hire more of you and will probably have to lay off many of you. We are not kidding". For 2-3 years after that statement the public sector unions took 0-1% and shared in the hurt. Now NS is look at being one of the first provinces to be back to balance. There is a right time and wrong to time to ask for more. People like Shady would be happy to see all workers never get a raise. Personally I just want what is fair. Quote
punked Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 He doesn't represent all teachers. Teachers have gone 8 years without any issues and they understand the current economic climate (at least the ones I know). The OSSTF union even went to negotiate a wage freeze and McGuinty said "Not enough"/It's not what we want. A union going to negotiate a wage freeze is almost unheard of! Now, ETFO (elementary) is more militant and less rational... it would never do that. The stuff you read in the news is mostly just misinformation, teachers aren't making any "demands". They are just trying to protect what has already been agreed to. From what I hear. They are all in on the wage freeze, it is the sick days that they are fighting about. Quote
Boges Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) From what I hear. They are all in on the wage freeze, it is the sick days that they are fighting about. Yeah teachers are actually expecting that money. Their opinion is that it's not their fault the province can't afford it anymore. I wonder if some teacher would go so far as to borrow the sum of their already banked sick days and invest that money knowing they'll get the cheque once they retire. I can't say I weep for the teachers on this one, they already have an amazing pension. I'm vehemently anti-McGuinty so anything that makes him look bad is fine by me. The Tories would do the exact same thing McGuinty is trying so really the teachers have no where to turn but the NDP. It'd make them look silly since the Unions have done whatever they could to get Dalton elected in 2007 and 2011. Edited August 2, 2012 by Boges Quote
punked Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 Yeah teachers are actually expecting that money. Their opinion is that it's not their fault the province can't afford it anymore. I wonder if some teacher would go so far as to borrow the sum of their already banked sick days and invest that money knowing they'll get the cheque once they retire. I can't say I weep for the teachers on this one, they already have an amazing pension. I'm vehemently anti-McGuinty so anything that makes him look bad is fine by me. The Tories would do the exact same thing McGuinty is trying so really the teachers have no where to turn but the NDP. It'd make them look silly since the Unions have done whatever they could to get Dalton elected in 2007 and 2010. Well I can't see the NDP being any better. Quote
Topaz Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 Today, McGuinty is saying he'll call back the government to deal with the teacher's contract, this could get ugly and the kids could be off for a while if the teachers dig their feet in and fight it. http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1749986 Quote
socialist Posted August 2, 2012 Author Report Posted August 2, 2012 Today, McGuinty is saying he'll call back the government to deal with the teacher's contract, this could get ugly and the kids could be off for a while if the teachers dig their feet in and fight it. http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1749986 you better believe it teachers will fight for their rights. its too bad the government wants to force teachers into a strike that hurts the kids. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
punked Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 you better believe it teachers will fight for their rights. its too bad the government wants to force teachers into a strike that hurts the kids. They wont force them into anything. They will call them essential (you better believe if Air Canada is essential that our teachers are) and they will be forced to go back to work. End of story. Quote
socialist Posted August 2, 2012 Author Report Posted August 2, 2012 They wont force them into anything. They will call them essential (you better believe if Air Canada is essential that our teachers are) and they will be forced to go back to work. End of story. this is a provincial issue. you are wrong. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
punked Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 this is a provincial issue. you are wrong. Provinces can declare essential services to you know. Quote
Boges Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 Today, McGuinty is saying he'll call back the government to deal with the teacher's contract, this could get ugly and the kids could be off for a while if the teachers dig their feet in and fight it. http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1749986 Oh if he does that It'll be great! He'll have to get support from the PCs to get anything done as far as Back to Work Legislation. Will the Dipper prop them if they do that? Quote
socialist Posted August 2, 2012 Author Report Posted August 2, 2012 Oh if he does that It'll be great! He'll have to get support from the PCs to get anything done as far as Back to Work Legislation. Will the Dipper prop them if they do that? I spoke to some teachers about this today. They are getting angry. The teachers unions will never succumb to strong arm tactics by the government. I am surprised at Dalton for this. He has been a teacher friendly premier. Too bad he had to stab us in the back. I will be in the picket lines come September supporting my colleagues. We look after each other. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Topaz Posted August 2, 2012 Report Posted August 2, 2012 In my view, because of the debt, I think EVERYONE's wages should be frozen who works for the province until time are much better and then recoup what was lost. Increase the cost of living but that's all. Anyone agree? Quote
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