capricorn Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 You can get one without knowing English too. Example, my Alma Mater the University of Ottawa, a fully bilingual university. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
WLDB Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Example, my Alma Mater the University of Ottawa, a fully bilingual university. Carleton person myself. Still the answer is definitely yes. You can know just french and get a degree or just english or both. Quote "History doesn't repeat itself-at best it sometimes rhymes"-Mark Twain
August1991 Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) French is a dieing world language.And by your logic Peeves, Finnish should have long since disappeared.Such irony. We have a Finn posting here in English and an English Canadian speaks of a dying language. Bilingualism in Canada? I suspect that TSS is trilingual. He speaks Finnish (with his own accent), he can post in English and loves his sauna. Will the Finnish language survive? The Finnish people have survived alone against the Russian army, and even the generous Swedes. ---- Peeves, Finland is a member of the EU and uses the euro. Finland: Welcome to the new Quebec. Edited March 18, 2012 by August1991 Quote
jbg Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Not legally. Bill 101 is a real pain for those who speak english in Quebec. Either way there is still a large enough english speaking population in Quebec.My view is that if other provinces and/or areas have to make room for French "where there is sufficient demand" the same should be true in Quebec. Montreal, for example, should revert to having signage in both languages. Im fine with the whole bilingual thing. The more languages you know, the better. I guess if you lived in Biblical times you'd love the Tower of Babel. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
-TSS- Posted March 18, 2012 Author Report Posted March 18, 2012 Isn't Montreal really a truly bilingual city unlike rural Quebec which is French only? The 1995 referendum was incredibly close but surely Montreal decided it. Quote
MACKER Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) May I ask are you a French-speaking Canadian yourself? I speak some French. I am an anglophone. I've studied French, and I own a property in a bilingual area of Canada but I spend an equal or greater amount of time in a very anglo area of Canada. I spent a few weeks in the Kamouraska area of Quebec. I've also spent time in Franco Ontario. I think what the Franco Ontarians have is wonderful and more support needs to go out to them and other Franco groups throughout Canada, likewise the Anglo portions of Canada need to embrace French because it really is a blessing on Canada, and the erosion of French from Canada is a highly unfortunate occurrence, it lowers Canada's capacities and stature. French is a gateway to history, it is also an affront to the Americanization of Canada, and a protection for Canada from Canadian culture being diluted by America. America weilds too much influence on Canadian culture and by that controls on our freedom, as culture is self identity, and creates the boundaries of our liberty, it is vital to protect our Canadian heritage, and French is one gatewateway to acheiving that. Canadien culture is something that is being turned against itself, and that is unfortunate, together we stand strong, divided or subjected we are nothing. I spend 2-3 months each year isolating myself from anything but French books, news, radio etc.. or having a majority of French media sources. Although it is not perfect isolation, and can be improved on, this is how I go about improving my French. I also read articles in both French and English throughout the year, supplementing my news with French news sources when I want an alternative view. (Much like I read Spanish news before I travel to Spanish speaking countries or when I want an alternative view on a subject, to dilute the sole sourced propaganda) Edited March 18, 2012 by MACKER Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 And by your logic Peeves, Finnish should have long since disappeared. Let's flip that around then: why does the French language in Canada need government intervention to thrive, if it's not needed anywhere else in the world ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
-TSS- Posted March 18, 2012 Author Report Posted March 18, 2012 Am I right in concluding that French is not at all imposed on people who live in regions where French just is not spoken? That would be a much saner version of language-policies compared to what we have in Finland where the entire country is officially bilingual. Having said that, I know one can't compare Finland and Canada. It is more relevant to compare Finland and a given Canadian province where both languages exist. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Am I right in concluding that French is not at all imposed on people who live in regions where French just is not spoken? That would be a much saner version of language-policies compared to what we have in Finland where the entire country is officially bilingual. What do you mean by "imposed" ? People buying goods anywhere in Canada will see English and French wording on the packages. People flying from Calgary to Vancouver will hear announcements in English and French. It's tricky to provide services in both languages without 'imposing' either one. Having said that, I know one can't compare Finland and Canada. It is more relevant to compare Finland and a given Canadian province where both languages exist. New Brunswick is said to be the most bilingual province. I don't know what that means. It's just a minor annoyance to most of us at the worst of times. Then again, there are others who get fairly piggish about asserting their lingual identity in a loud and tiresome way. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
-TSS- Posted March 18, 2012 Author Report Posted March 18, 2012 What do you mean by "imposed" ? Well, like forcing children to learn the minority language at school and society in general working in two languages even though only a miniscule proportion of the population speak the minority-language. Quote
Bryan Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Am I right in concluding that French is not at all imposed on people who live in regions where French just is not spoken? You have that right. The level of 'enforcement' of bilingualism varies by region, as does the definition of bilingualism. Here in Manitoba, official recognition of both french and english was a condition of our joining confederation, yet we still are not federally designated as "Officially Bilingual" the way New Brunswick is. The only way i can explain it, is we maintain bilingualism, but we don't enforce it. All govt services are in both languages, our stop signs say both STOP and ARRET, we learn french in school, etc. Despite all that, it's exceptionally rare to encounter people speaking french in a public setting. The neighbourhood I live in is "the" french quarter of the province, and in 20 yrs living here, I've only been addressed in french twice. Both of those were by recent immigrants (one from France, one from Africa). Quote
-TSS- Posted March 18, 2012 Author Report Posted March 18, 2012 At least French is a world language and may be useful, you never know, but we here in Finland are lumbered with Swedish which is just a useless minor language like that of our own. I just can't believe we have so spineless politicians who have allowed this idiocy to go on. I know there are a lot of very wealthy Swedish-speaking people's trusts who clearly bribe politicians to maintain the current idiocy but despite all that it is still just mind boggling. And yeah, we in Finland are supposed to be one of the least corrupt countries in the world. The very existence of this ridiculous bilingualism we have here proves otherwise. Quote
Bryan Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 At least French is a world language and may be useful, you never know, but we here in Finland are lumbered with Swedish which is just a useless minor language A lot of people feel that way about us having to know french too. French is really not of much use to me as I never go anywhere or deal with anything that would require it. I do, however, travel to Latin America at least once a year. It would be far more useful for me to have better spanish skills. Quote
MACKER Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) You have that right. The level of 'enforcement' of bilingualism varies by region, as does the definition of bilingualism. Here in Manitoba, official recognition of both french and english was a condition of our joining confederation, yet we still are not federally designated as "Officially Bilingual" the way New Brunswick is. The only way i can explain it, is we maintain bilingualism, but we don't enforce it. All govt services are in both languages, our stop signs say both STOP and ARRET, we learn french in school, etc. Despite all that, it's exceptionally rare to encounter people speaking french in a public setting. The neighbourhood I live in is "the" french quarter of the province, and in 20 yrs living here, I've only been addressed in french twice. Both of those were by recent immigrants (one from France, one from Africa). Manitoba is more a case of the fact of the influence of the North West Company and Red River Metis who were the offspring of the NWC traders. However subsequently during the great western land grab that saw the colonization of the praries by all sorts of other non French groups, saw the influence of the French heritage in Manitoba eroded. http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/confederation/023001-3040-e.html Manitoba was created in 1870, while the Dominion Lands Act came about in 1872 after they joined confederation. It was from 1880-1890 that the former French population was turned into a great minority, as the Prairies population doubled in size. http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/mb_history/24/frenchpresence.shtml Edited March 18, 2012 by MACKER Quote
cybercoma Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 New Brunswick is said to be the most bilingual province. I don't know what that means. It's just a minor annoyance to most of us at the worst of times. Then again, there are others who get fairly piggish about asserting their lingual identity in a loud and tiresome way. It means you can't work for the provincial government in just about any capacity, unless you speak both languages. A friend of mine has been working at the library in Fredericton for 20 years. She can never change positions, neither vertically nor laterally. The reason is that she's not bilingual and they do not hire monolingual employees any longer. Since she already works there, they will not fire her. She's just not able to apply for any of the internal postings. Quote
WLDB Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 A lot of people feel that way about us having to know french too. French is really not of much use to me as I never go anywhere or deal with anything that would require it. I do, however, travel to Latin America at least once a year. It would be far more useful for me to have better spanish skills. Spanish isnt that hard to learn if you already have French. There are a lot of similarities. Same with Italian. Quote "History doesn't repeat itself-at best it sometimes rhymes"-Mark Twain
Jack Weber Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Spanish isnt that hard to learn if you already have French. There are a lot of similarities. Same with Italian. Yes...They're called the Romance Languages...French,Italian,Spanish,Portuguese,and,Romanian are all very similar... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Wild Bill Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 What do you mean by "imposed" ? People buying goods anywhere in Canada will see English and French wording on the packages. People flying from Calgary to Vancouver will hear announcements in English and French. It's tricky to provide services in both languages without 'imposing' either one. All true, Michael. However, it is also true that when I drive to and around Montreal I never see a road sign in English - not even a bilingual highway sign. The same is not true of the 400 series highways around Toronto or the rest of Ontario. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Tilter Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I speak some French. I am an anglophone. I've studied French, and I own a property in a bilingual area of Canada but I spend an equal or greater amount of time in a very anglo area of Canada. I spent a few weeks in the Kamouraska area of Quebec. I've also spent time in Franco Ontario. I think what the Franco Ontarians have is wonderful and more support needs to go out to them and other Franco groups throughout Canada, likewise the Anglo portions of Canada need to embrace French because it really is a blessing on Canada, and the erosion of French from Canada is a highly unfortunate occurrence, it lowers Canada's capacities and stature. French is a gateway to history, it is also an affront to the Americanization of Canada, and a protection for Canada from Canadian culture being diluted by America. America weilds too much influence on Canadian culture and by that controls on our freedom, as culture is self identity, and creates the boundaries of our liberty, it is vital to protect our Canadian heritage, and French is one gatewateway to acheiving that. Canadien culture is something that is being turned against itself, and that is unfortunate, together we stand strong, divided or subjected we are nothing. I spend 2-3 months each year isolating myself from anything but French books, news, radio etc.. or having a majority of French media sources. Although it is not perfect isolation, and can be improved on, this is how I go about improving my French. I also read articles in both French and English throughout the year, supplementing my news with French news sources when I want an alternative view. (Much like I read Spanish news before I travel to Spanish speaking countries or when I want an alternative view on a subject, to dilute the sole sourced propaganda) Or we could see it this way I've also spent time in Franco Quebec. I think what the Franco Quebeckers have is intolerant and less support needs to go out to them and other Franco groups throughout Canada, likewise the French portions of Canada need to embrace English because it really is a blessing on Canada, and the erosion of English in Quebec is a highly shameful occurrence. It lowers Canada's capacities and stature. French is a gateway to the backward loving residents of Quebec, it is also an affront to the Anglophones of Canada, and a bastardization of language rights for Canadians and our culture that is being diluted by the provincial government of Quebec & their snivelling about the loss of their conterary language and the huge expense to the ROC just to have the rest of Canada polluted with the Bilingualism forced on us by a dead Qubecois . Edited March 18, 2012 by Tilter Quote
-TSS- Posted March 18, 2012 Author Report Posted March 18, 2012 Spanish is doddle until you get to the subjunctive. The very idea of subjunctive is just so alien to anyone not speaking a Romance language that it really takes some coping when learning. I Hve myself studied Spanish and I love the language but the subjunctive is still a pain. Quote
Argus Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Am I sensing some bitterness? You're sensing some reality. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Bilingualism is an asset, it opens up doors for people. It is unfortunate so many people are ignorant and uneducated. One of the problems for the federal public service is it's absolutely full of utterly incompetent managers and executives who only got their job because the bilingualism requirement screened out more than 95% of those who would otherwise do the work. There's an old adage of a guy who is drowning in a swimming pool, and calls out for help, but the government life guard on duty can't swim. When asked how he got the job he proudly sticks out his chest and says "I'm bilingual!" People who do not engage both languages are shirkers of their civic responsibility to build a whole Canada. That's idiotic. Why would someone who doesn't have any use for French go through the difficulties and expense of learning it? And then once you learn it if you don't have a regular use for it, if your neighbours don't speak it and you don't use it at work, then it fades away anyway. Pointless. People have the right to engage society as they wish, but it is a failure not to engage all parts of society. French Society is a large part of Canadian Society, alienation of the French is alienation of 1/5th of what makes you Canadian. would you forget to care for 20% of your body, what are you without arms, or a head? Most of the French are separated from my society anyway. They live in Quebec, a place I never go, and I have no interest in them, nor they in me. Why should I learn their language? Most of them don't even know how to read and write their language properly. And I'm supposed to learn it? Phhht. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Sure, but what else then does official bilingualism mean? It means all those in leadership positions in the federal public service have to be fluently bilingual before any screening of their actual skills in leadership or job knowledge is even looked at. It means that lots of incompetent clowns get accepted and promoted because there is only a very small group of people capable of passing the language tests. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 18, 2012 Report Posted March 18, 2012 Let's flip that around then: why does the French language in Canada need government intervention to thrive, if it's not needed anywhere else in the world ? Even in France they have official agencies to protect their ridiculous complex language. And like Quebecers, they probably don't know how to use it properly either. The natural purpose of language is communication. All through history as peoples merge, languages merge, and change and die. The English didn't used to speak English. There were separate peoples in Britain and they spoke separate languages. They merged, and now, other than a few holdouts ,they speak English. Yes, the Welsh are working very hard to keep their language, and there are some Celtic speakers in Scotland and Ireland, but again, this is government trying to resist the natural order of things to no purpose but cultural arrogance. Am I poorer now that I speak English rather than whatever my distant relatives spoke? I don't think so. French should die away. It should have died decades ago. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
-TSS- Posted March 18, 2012 Author Report Posted March 18, 2012 Thank you Argus. I'm myself an active opponent to the crazy bilingualism in my own country the supporters of which often point out Canada as a perfect example how bilingualism works. Quote
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