Bilingualism in Canada

[MACKER]

Am I right in concluding that French is not at all imposed on people who live in regions where French just is not spoken? That would be a much saner version of language-policies compared to what we have in Finland where the entire country is officially bilingual.

Having said that, I know one can't compare Finland and Canada. It is more relevant to compare Finland and a given Canadian province where both languages exist.

No language is imposed. Association is free in Canada. The courts will provide a translator to those who do not speak English or French, but for those who want government services, they are offered normally in English and French, also all official communications, instructions, laws etc.. are published in English and French. Ignorance of the law however is not an exhoneration of the requirement to uphold the law. Both the English and French versions can be interpreted separately in a legal case, enforcement etc... and no they are not necessarily identical, just similar. Also Quebec uses the Napoleonic Code, not English Common law in Civil courts, and they bring that to the Federal level. WHile each province has slightly different statute, it is more or less the same, Quebec is a little more unique however. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Code_of_Quebec

People who live in Canada have no obligation to know French or English, but for citizenship they do, need to know atleast one at a basic level. Canada has long (for more than 40 years now,been a strong supporter of multiculturalism and support of ethnic communities, and enhancement of those communities and preservation of their ethnic identities, Canada is not a melting pot, it is a mosaic. You can be what you are in Canada, but arrests of Muslims tends to be more common than others for charges such as terrorism, so there may be some limits to ethnic culture support. Its not just bringing middle eastern customs to Canada, other things like Bigamy are frowned on also, even though they are accepted customs in Non English Common law cultures.

The British were forced to preserve French Culture and Rights (Including preservation and rights for Catholics) as part of the treaty between the French and English in the Seven Years War (French and Indian War). Individual Provinces composed their own constitutions based upon the habitants of those areas. Some areas had a vocal French enfranchisement others did not.

Edited March 18, 2012 by MACKER

[jbg]

No language is imposed. Association is free in Canada.

And which consumers get the privilege of paying for Canada's unique bi-lingual food container labels? How many shoppers in Edmonton or Chicoutimi need them?

[Benz]

Let's ask about this issue this way: Can you get a university-degree in Canada without knowing any French?

I asked that question because here in Finland you can't get one without knowing Swedish.

yes, you only need to know english or french for a university degree. Not necessarly both at once. The language courses are at elementary and high schools.

Comparing Canada and Finland is a bit odd. Finland is smaller in number than the only french province of Canada. But the biggest difficulties to compare are the languages. Whether it is Sweddish or Finnish, both are used only by Swedden and Finland. Unlike English and French, they are the only two languages in the world to be used on the 5 continents. Although alot of countries use french and are part of the francophonie, english is by far the most used as a secondary language. It became the effective international language, even if officially, there are 6 recognized languages to play that role.

It places the canadians in an extraordinry advantage. The french can learn english, the english can learn french and they both know it would be a win win for every one. The requirements are very weak tho. One only need to handle the very basis to pass. Since english is the most used and you can manage to travel almost every where in the world as an unilingual anglo, learning french doesn't sound as needy for the english canada as it is for the french to learn english. But since it is a great asset for one individual to learn at least a second language, the english canadians should considere themselve lucky to share this land with the french, rather than... let's say, the vietnameses. I don't have anything against them by the way. It's just easier for an anglo to learn french than that language. It also is more useful on the international level. However, some would prefer to learn something else than french because they don't need french and would need sometheng else like spannish. I can understand that because back then, I was not interested to learn english. I would have chosen spannish. But it's not a good idea. A third language shall be optional for the children, not at the expense of the other official language. The schools don't usually offer a third language tho.

Canada is not comparable to Swedden/Finland, where for a Finnish, learning Sweddish is no use outside of Scandinavia. Many of you might be more attracted to learn english or another one depending on what are your interests. I knew about Sweddish being the second language of Finland but, I wasn't aware that it is as far as being required to get a university degree.

On a side note, you'll see some canadians complaining about the presence of the other's language. They are stuck in the past of the residual former british empire and considere the assimilation of the french as an unfinished task.

And yeah, we in Finland are supposed to be one of the least corrupt countries in the world. The very existence of this ridiculous bilingualism we have here proves otherwise.

woah! If that language thing is the worst you can find in Finland, you country is clean as crystal water compared to us. You have no idea how dirty our liberals were and the conservatives trying to do worst. This country is going down and looks like a banana republic once more year after year.

Thank you Argus. I'm myself an active opponent to the crazy bilingualism in my own country the supporters of which often point out Canada as a perfect example how bilingualism works.

You did not understand Argus. He beleives french language should desapear. Do I need to tell you it means your Finnish language should deseapear as well? According to him, neither sweddish, nor finnish should be teach in Finland. Just english. He is the perfect example of the residual former british empire I talked about.

[Benz]

Why should I learn their language? Most of them don't even know how to read and write their language properly. And I'm supposed to learn it? Phhht.

For one, to be less idiot and stop saying stupid things like this:

There's an old adage of a guy who is drowning in a swimming pool, and calls out for help, but the government life guard on duty can't swim. When asked how he got the job he proudly sticks out his chest and says "I'm bilingual!"

[Wild Bill]

There's an old joke my kids used to tell me. Two hunters find some tracks in the bush.

"These are deer tracks!" says the one. "No, they are bear tracks!" says the other.

While they are arguing the train runs over them!

The discussion in this thread about whether English or French is the more useful and preferred language for thriving in today's climate of international trade and progress reminds me of this joke.

Forget about French being a dead language, or English supposedly being the new lingua franca.

Learn Chinese!

[Newfoundlander]

It means all those in leadership positions in the federal public service have to be fluently bilingual before any screening of their actual skills in leadership or job knowledge is even looked at. It means that lots of incompetent clowns get accepted and promoted because there is only a very small group of people capable of passing the language tests.

Not true at all.

[Wild Bill]

The British were forced to preserve French Culture and Rights (Including preservation and rights for Catholics) as part of the treaty between the French and English in the Seven Years War (French and Indian War).

Have you anything to support this idea? I had been taught that the British CHOSE to allow the French to preserve their culture and rights for Catholics!

That was part of the tolerance and wisdom of British governors of those times and leaders. Of course, there were some bigots like Lord Durham but the example of what those British leaders did for the French in Canada was totally unique for those times - an unheard of progressive act.

[g_bambino]

Well, like forcing children to learn the minority language at school...

I don't see what's wrong with teaching children a second language. I was "forced" to learn French in school (though I went to a private school) and am happy for it. Regardless, any parent is free to withdraw their child or children from the Crown-run education system; homeschooling is legal in every province in Canada.

...and society in general working in two languages even though only a miniscule proportion of the population speak the minority-language.

Where in Canada does this even happen, let alone the question of where is it imposed upon people by the state?

[ed.: sp]

Edited March 19, 2012 by g_bambino

[Guest Peeves]

And by your logic Peeves, Finnish should have long since disappeared.

Such irony. We have a Finn posting here in English and an English Canadian speaks of a dying language.

Bilingualism in Canada? I suspect that TSS is trilingual. He speaks Finnish (with his own accent), he can post in English and loves his sauna.

Will the Finnish language survive? The Finnish people have survived alone against the Russian army, and even the generous Swedes.

----

Peeves, Finland is a member of the EU and uses the euro. Finland: Welcome to the new Quebec.

I seldom resort to logic and rely generally on emotion.

The language of commerce is English. French is soooo passé.

I seldom give much respect the opinion of those that would partake of Montréal poutine or for that matter, of lutefisk actually more akin to saippuakala.

[Guest Peeves]

Have you anything to support this idea? I had been taught that the British CHOSE to allow the French to preserve their culture and rights for Catholics!

That was part of the tolerance and wisdom of British governors of those times and leaders. Of course, there were some bigots like Lord Durham but the example of what those British leaders did for the French in Canada was totally unique for those times - an unheard of progressive act.

Referencing history, the French would prefer to be speaking German than English.

[Tilter]

One of the problems for the federal public service is it's absolutely full of utterly incompetent managers and executives who only got their job because the bilingualism requirement screened out more than 95% of those who would otherwise do the work.

There's an old adage of a guy who is drowning in a swimming pool, and calls out for help, but the government life guard on duty can't swim. When asked how he got the job he proudly sticks out his chest and says "I'm bilingual!"

That's idiotic. Why would someone who doesn't have any use for French go through the difficulties and expense of learning it? And then once you learn it if you don't have a regular use for it, if your neighbours don't speak it and you don't use it at work, then it fades away anyway. Pointless.

Most of the French are separated from my society anyway. They live in Quebec, a place I never go, and I have no interest in them, nor they in me. Why should I learn their language? Most of them don't even know how to read and write

or even speak their language properly.

And I'm upposed to learn it? Phhht.

[Tilter]

It means all those in leadership positions in the federal public service have to be fluently bilingual before any screening of their actual skills in leadership or job knowledge is even looked at. It means that lots of incompetent clowns get accepted and promoted because there is only a very small group of people capable of passing the language tests.

I take the phrase

fluently bilingual

with a grain of salt when it comes to the idea that they have to be fluent in English.

[Tilter]

You have that right. The level of 'enforcement' of bilingualism varies by region, as does the definition of bilingualism. Here in Manitoba, official recognition of both french and english was a condition of our joining confederation, yet we still are not federally designated as "Officially Bilingual" the way New Brunswick is.

The only way i can explain it, is we maintain bilingualism, but we don't enforce it. All govt services are in both languages, our stop signs say both STOP and ARRET, we learn french in school, etc. Despite all that, it's exceptionally rare to encounter people speaking french in a public setting. The neighbourhood I live in is "the" french quarter of the province, and in 20 yrs living here, I've only been addressed in french twice. Both of those were by recent immigrants (one from France, one from Africa).

Gee, I bet that's helpful to the (roughly)10% of the population, 95% of whom never get to read the many thousands of STOP signs in The Peg and couldn't care less about the "Arret"

If Winnipeg should have Bilingual signs the other language should be in Ukrainian.

[jbg]

If Winnipeg should have Bilingual signs the other language should be in Ukrainian.

Or Canadian.

[fellowtraveller]

Bilingualism is definitely an asset, but French would be well down the list as a preferred second language.

The primary language of business on our planet is unquestionably English. The future of Canada in foreign tongues lies in Mandarin, then Hindi. If you want your children to be federal civil servants, a case can be made for French.

[cybercoma]

Or Canadian.

Your joke is still lame.

[Guest Peeves]

Even in France they have official agencies to protect their ridiculous complex language. And like Quebecers, they probably don't know how to use it properly either.

The natural purpose of language is communication. All through history as peoples merge, languages merge, and change and die. The English didn't used to speak English. There were separate peoples in Britain and they spoke separate languages. They merged, and now, other than a few holdouts ,they speak English. Yes, the Welsh are working very hard to keep their language, and there are some Celtic speakers in Scotland and Ireland, but again, this is government trying to resist the natural order of things to no purpose but cultural arrogance. Am I poorer now that I speak English rather than whatever my distant relatives spoke? I don't think so. French should die away. It should have died decades ago.

French may be je ne sais quoi desired

And Latin once was inspired

Ah but but English is required

There wasn't even an agreed on spelling or pronunciation in North America until early 1800 when Noah Webster put out a definitive dictionary which was used for conformity.

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070228221211AAaJltX

[Guest Peeves]

Your joke is still lame.

That's lamé s'il vous plaît.

[g_bambino]

That's lamé s'il vous plaît.

A fabric with metallic thread?

[Jack Weber]

A fabric with metallic thread?

Did'nt Sha Na Na wear gold lamé?

[-TSS-]

One must make that distintion in official bilingualism that it only guarantees that people have access to basic services in their own language. It doesn't have to mean that everyone in that country must know both languages. However, I guess that is how things are in Canada.

[capricorn]

It doesn't have to mean that everyone in that country must know both languages.

In terms of federal services to the public, there is a yardstick known as "where numbers warrant", i.e. where the second official language of the population is large enough that federal services must be proactively offered to them. That demand is determined and established through data collected in the census. Consequently, the federal government will allocate resources (i.e. staff, translation and work instruments)to give effect to that legislated obligation.

If that isn't complicated enough, there's also something called "language of work rights" where employees have an expectation to be able to work in the language of their choice. That is also a legislated provision.

Good luck trying to understand how bilingualism works in Canada. I've worked on both sides of the issue for many years; as a public service manager and as a union representative. I would describe it as trying to make your way through a maze.

[Bryan]

Gee, I bet that's helpful to the (roughly)10% of the population, 95% of whom never get to read the many thousands of STOP signs in The Peg and couldn't care less about the "Arret"

It's particularly absurd when you consider that stop signs in France just say "STOP".

If Winnipeg should have Bilingual signs the other language should be in Ukrainian.

Or Tagalog, or Plattdüütsch.

The future of Canada in foreign tongues lies in Mandarin, then Hindi.

Add Portuguese and Russian to that to cover the BRIC countries. Spanish if ALBA becomes a major trading block.

[-TSS-]

For English-speakers French must be the easiest foreign language to learn as about half of the vocabulary is similar to English. I have never studied French, so my knowledge of it is rather limited but I have studied German and I have met people who have studied both languages and they say French is a piece of cake compared to German. Well, that's what they say. I can't comment on that as I don't know French but I know German and in German sometimes forming sentences with sub-clauses is like solving mathematical equations.

As for Finland, our geographic proximity to Russia may make many people believe that we in Finland are generally well-versed in Russian. Many people are taken by surprise when they learn that actually very few Finns can speak Russian to any degree at all.

The ability to speak Russian is very rare in this country and that's a shame because we really are losing a lot of business because of that.

[Smallc]

I haven't found learning it to be very easy at all.