Bilingualism in Canada

[CPCFTW]

When will people realize the French culture and religion must be preserved because without it the French king will resume control of Quebec due to breach of treaty.

It is only graciousness among the civiized Christian kingdoms that we respect the agreement that brings New France under English title.

ummm...

[Vineon]

Do you think the Irish have no culture? Yet they largely speak English. If your culture is too weak to survive the use of another language then perhaps it isn't worthy of survival.

So a culture intrinsically linked to it's language is simply not one you deem "worthy to survive". I get it.

Is that the reaction of a bitter jealous English Canadian that sees little difference between himself and his neighbours down south save a few regionalist dinstinctions such a tuques, aboot and hockey? Oh, how dare I mention 'aboot', you'll defend to the death that it is not something Canadians actually say (implied: "No, I swear! We talk like Americans!").

Let's roll the Molson I AM CANADIAN joke of a commercial again or watch the opening Vancouver Olympic ceremonies once more and bask in a fake Canadian sense of pride and identity that nobody really manages to define. Beavers on skates! Oh yeah, that is Canada right there. Understand this rest of the world : we have beavers and we play hockey!

What is being Canadian again? It must be being an American except with publicly funded health care benefits.... and with the Queen of another country on our dollar notes?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Vineon

[bush_cheney2004]

What is being Canadian again? It must be being an American except with publicly funded health care benefits.... and with the Queen of another country on our dollar notes?

Alas, the Americans have publicly funded health care too...has for decades. That doesn't leave much, except for the usual Americanski foil used to define whatever it means to be Canadian.

[Benz]

The English have never felt the need to do anything to protect their language.

They rather kill the others. Cultural genocides. Banning other languages. All those old fashion tiny attentions the empire took good care to apply like if it was to please mom.

Do you think the Irish have no culture? Yet they largely speak English. If your culture is too weak to survive the use of another language then perhaps it isn't worthy of survival.

Are you trying to pretend the Irish choosed english over their own language by their own will? I can imagine the big picture. "Thank you George VIII for banning our language, it is such a coincidence that I wanted to give it up and adopt your's."

Argus, what's next? All the cows dream to become a tasty burger because it is the natural course. You should take your medic. Schysophrenia can be controlled with the proper dosage.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Benz

[The_Squid]

In BC you do not need to speak French to have a Federal Government job.

Finland is way ahead of Canada in terms of education, and a lot of this has to do with teaching children to be fluent in several languages. In Canada, we have two official languages, but rarely are they both taught. The smart parents send their kids to French immersion schools.

Edited March 28, 2012 by The_Squid

[jbg]

So a culture intrinsically linked to it's language is simply not one you deem "worthy to survive". I get it.

I have nothing against any culture or language surviving. But on the dime of other cultures?

[-TSS-]

In Ireland Irish was still the majority language until mid-19th century when there was a widespread famine which either led to the death or emigration of vast proportion of the population. Some Irish people say that the famine was orcestrated by the British but there is unanimity that that is a bit of an exaggeration but the English did not care about the blight of the Irish who were heavily dependant on one crop, potato, as the landed gentry took the best farmlands. While people were perishing in their thousands a lot of food was exported from Ireland.

The noteworthy thing is that at the time Ireland was an integral part of the UK, not a colony or a dominion. However, the great famine was a devastating blow to the Irish language which to our day is still being tried to be revived but there really are not any monoglot Irish speakers anywhere.

[Newfoundlander]

And what is the basis for your statement? I've worked in the federal public service in Ottawa for almost fifteen years now, while most of my relatives and friends over the years have worked there as well, in a wide variety of departments and agencies. You?

We have a newly appointed Auditor General, one of the most important bureaucratic positions in Canada, who is not bilingual. I have a number of family members in both St. John's and Ottawa who are federal government employees and none of them speak a bit of French.

[capricorn]

I have a number of family members in both St. John's and Ottawa who are federal government employees and none of them speak a bit of French.

Not all federal jobs are designated bilingual. There are government jobs designated English essential so knowledge of French is not a requirement to hold the position. But once an employee reaches the supervisory or managerial level, even if there is only one employee on staff whose mother language is French, language of work rights dictate that the supervisor's or manager's position be designated bilingual. The same principle applies in reverse to federal institutions in Quebec where the predominent language of work is French.

[Vineon]

I have nothing against any culture or language surviving. But on the dime of other cultures?

"on the dime"

I'm too French for this one; not even urban dictionary could help me there.

I'm guessing it either meant "at the detriment of other cultures" or "paid by other cultures".

Assuming the first, I would disagree that French Québec endangers the cultural hegemony that is American/Canadian English (and who would even claim that), the culture to which it is in direct competition in Québec... unless someone can convince me that English Québec should be thought of as a distinct people. They don't show any sign that they believe so themselves.

If you really "have nothing against cultures or languages surviving", then you must understand that they do necessarily by resisting being annexed to another one competing with it. In the end, always "on the dime" of another culture/language.

So do you still have nothing against cultures and languages surviving? I don't buy it.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Vineon

[Argus]

So a culture intrinsically linked to it's language is simply not one you deem "worthy to survive". I get it.

Fine then. If all you've got that's a 'culture' consists of grammar then you ain't got much.

[Argus]

They rather kill the others. Cultural genocides. Banning other languages. All those old fashion tiny attentions the empire took good care to apply like if it was to please mom.

Empires behave as empires behave. I certainly realize the English - and please note, I'm not English - did their best to discourage local nationalism through a variety of means which could and did sometimes include the banning of local religions, music, language, etc. But that had nothing to do with any thoughts of preserving their language from change.

Are you trying to pretend the Irish choosed english over their own language by their own will?

What I said was that regardless of what language they speak the Irish have retained their culture. But then, maybe their culture was actually strong enough to withstand the changing of its language, whereas the French culture is simply too weak.

Argus, what's next? All the cows dream to become a tasty burger because it is the natural course. You should take your medic. Schysophrenia can be controlled with the proper dosage.

That's sometimes true. Unfortunately, there's no pill for stupid.

[Argus]

We have a newly appointed Auditor General, one of the most important bureaucratic positions in Canada, who is not bilingual. I have a number of family members in both St. John's and Ottawa who are federal government employees and none of them speak a bit of French.

The AG would not be able to find work as a clerk if he applied. He's not a member of the public service. As for St. John's, there are local offices there which don't require French, but the power is in Ottawa. And you can't access it without being bilingual.

[Argus]

Not all federal jobs are designated bilingual. There are government jobs designated English essential so knowledge of French is not a requirement to hold the position. But once an employee reaches the supervisory or managerial level, even if there is only one employee on staff whose mother language is French, language of work rights dictate that the supervisor's or manager's position be designated bilingual. The same principle applies in reverse to federal institutions in Quebec where the predominent language of work is French.

In Ottawa, which is where the power is, more than 60% of all positions are designated bilingual, including virtually all management and executive positions.

[Vineon]

Fine then. If all you've got that's a 'culture' consists of grammar then you ain't got much.

I wish you were trolling but you are probably simply clueless.

That a culture is intrinsically tied to it's language doesn't mean that the language is the sole difference but that the language is the root of the differences.

A different language means a whole different set of cultural references. The best example of this would be Québec's own star system which spawns music, tv shows, comedians and movies that are it's own. In large, there is no comparison to make between the interest the Québécois have their home grown cultural products versus the interest Canada has for it's own. Québécois care, Canadians do not. Québécois watch their shows and they watch their movies while Canadians have no interest in their own. It does not mean that Canadians cannot appreciate their local talents, it simply means they will not appreciate them simply because they are Canadians. The reason for that is fairly simple : Canadians and Americans are culturally interchangeable and nobody manages to notice a difference. A Canadian cultural product has therefore no added value to Canadians.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Vineon

[Tilter]

In BC you do not need to speak French to have a Federal Government job.

Finland is way ahead of Canada in terms of education, and a lot of this has to do with teaching children to be fluent in several languages. In Canada, we have two official languages, but rarely are they both taught. The smart parents send their kids to French immersion schools.

In BC you do not need to speak French to have a Federal Government job.

but try to get a federal govt job ANYWHERE in Canada knowing only English--- good luck with that.

[Smallc]

but try to get a federal govt job ANYWHERE in Canada knowing only English--- good luck with that.

You can get plenty of federal government jobs without knowing French. You're misinformed.

[Guest Peeves]

On the other hand, all politicians should be considered cunning and lingual or at least cunnilingual.

[Tilter]

On the other hand, all politicians should be considered cunning and lingual or at least cunnilingual.

only if they are male.

[-TSS-]

I wish you were trolling but you are probably simply clueless.

That a culture is intrinsically tied to it's language doesn't mean that the language is the sole difference but that the language is the root of the differences.

A different language means a whole different set of cultural references. The best example of this would be Québec's own star system which spawns music, tv shows, comedians and movies that are it's own. In large, there is no comparison to make between the interest the Québécois have their home grown cultural products versus the interest Canada has for it's own. Québécois care, Canadians do not. Québécois watch their shows and they watch their movies while Canadians have no interest in their own. It does not mean that Canadians cannot appreciate their local talents, it simply means they will not appreciate them simply because they are Canadians. The reason for that is fairly simple : Canadians and Americans are culturally interchangeable and nobody manages to notice a difference. A Canadian cultural product has therefore no added value to Canadians.

I know what you are getting at. It has been said that the main prerequisite for a language to survive is that it is either spoken as a majority language in a large enough area or if the language becomes a minority language it can survive if it is the language of the ruling elite.

[Benz]

Some Irish people say that the famine was orcestrated by the British but there is unanimity that that is a bit of an exaggeration but the English did not care about the blight of the Irish who were heavily dependant on one crop, potato, as the landed gentry took the best farmlands. While people were perishing in their thousands a lot of food was exported from Ireland.

If not orchestred, they took that opportunity to do a cultural genocide.

The noteworthy thing is that at the time Ireland was an integral part of the UK, not a colony or a dominion.

So was Finland when under the domination of the russians? The irish were not in UK by their own will. That's the only point that matter. Even when they were assimilated, they choosed to go independent years later.

[The_Squid]

but try to get a federal govt job ANYWHERE in Canada knowing only English--- good luck with that.

You're incorrect.

A large proportion of civil service jobs are not bilingual.

What is a bilingual region for language of work purposes?

In a region designated bilingual for language of work purposes, federal institutions must ensure that the work environment is conducive to the effective use of both official languages and that their employees may exercise the right to use either language, subject to the obligations to serve the public and other employees.

Bilingual regions include:

the National Capital Region

parts of Northern and Eastern Ontario

the Montreal area

parts of the Eastern Townships, Gaspésie and Western Quebec

New Brunswick

. http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/sas-sde/ol-lo/faq-eng.htm

[Benz]

Empires behave as empires behave. I certainly realize the English - and please note, I'm not English - did their best to discourage local nationalism through a variety of means which could and did sometimes include the banning of local religions, music, language, etc. But that had nothing to do with any thoughts of preserving their language from change.

That's a totally different subject. Languages change indeed. It's kind of ironic that today's english uses more old french words than french itself. Sometimes the french pick some actual english words that were once old french. Like the word bacon. But there is nothing natural when one culture is doing a cultural genocide to another one. You are mixing up two different contexts.

What I said was that regardless of what language they speak the Irish have retained their culture. But then, maybe their culture was actually strong enough to withstand the changing of its language, whereas the French culture is simply too weak.

Today's Irish culture is not what it used to be. They lost an important part of their culture by losing their language. Irresversible damages. At last, they are independent. So they can do something but, it's very difficult. Trying to bring back alive a language that was almost dead, it's a long process. Several native nations in Canada are facing that too.

The french are weakers? Although the french are neither independent, nor sovereign in north america, they managed to survive and be a very strong active community. The facts rather say the opposite of your conclusions. The french culture is very strong... in Québec. But where the french are/were in minority, back when there was no TV, no schools and no means of what-so-ever to help that culture to survive, not only they lost the language, they lost their culture because they were placed in minority. Unlike the Irish in Ireland, although they were assimilated, they were still in majority on their island.

Your reasonning is confused and lost in history. You are comparing apples with oranges.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Benz